Vail buys Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte

Benny Profane wrote

marznc wrote

https://www.madriverglen.com/epic/

I used to work for Sports Illustrated. Eleven years. They, as most literate sports fans know, got steamrolled by ESPN. It was painful to watch, because they had this incredible brand they just sat on with that attitude. We're unique. We're the best. Our experience is like no other. Have you seen S.I. lately? It's pathetic, with no TV presence at all. Looks like a comic book with no ads. It's for sale, if you have the cash. Probably die in about ten years, and nobody will care.

Betch the guy who wrote that is at least in his sixties, and the average age of the MRG faithful is close. Bad demographics.

I get your point.  But MRG has managed to raise $3 million in a year with another $3 million to go and my sense is the people running the campaign are not baby boomers.  Like Alta (my favorite out west) and Bridger, there are unique features about those ski areas that can be hard to understand without spending time there.  In recent years I've read about and visited enough ski areas to start to get a sense of why some failed when others succeeded.  It's not about terrain.

Okemo was failing as a business when the Muellers took it over in the 1980s.  They made decisions and spent money in a way that made a big difference.  But couldn't do the same for CB.  Will be interesting to see what Vail money can do for CB.  The comparison for me is to Taos and Telluride, which are equally different to reach for travelers.  But each has managed to figure out a way to survive and seem to be positioned to thrive for the next decade.

A bit of a hoot that MRG is comparing Orda to Epic.  

Agreed. Don't tell Laszlo, but if this wave of consolidation and homogenization makes skiing cheaper for the masses who buy in, I'll pay a premium to ski somewhere with soul.

They aren't exactly comparing ORDA to Epic. ORDA is mentioned at the end of a long list going roughly from largest to smallest, and they couch it with "not to mention"...

"Vail is not alone in this buying spree. There is also Alterra (Aspen), Boyne, Peak Resorts, Powdr (yup that’s spelled right), Alpine Valley Holding, Resorts of the Canadian Rockies, Mountain Capital Partners, and a few others not to mention the State of New York which owns three mountains."

The mega-pass thing is based on (normal) people's desire for variety. I'm not normal. I'll keep skiing Gore, Plattekill, Magic, McCauley, Whiteface, Snow Ridge and Killington until I retire.  Then I'll add in all of Vermont North of K, all of NY and maybe a 1x/year trip out west. Maybe.

Harvey wrote

The mega-pass thing is based on (normal) people's desire for variety. I'm not normal. I'll keep skiing Gore, Plattekill, Magic, McCauley, Whiteface, Snow Ridge and Killington until I retire.  Then I'll add in all of Vermont North of K, all of NY and maybe a 1x/year trip out west. Maybe.

I dunno.  You may not be normal for folks in online ski forums.  But may be more representative of recreational skiers than you think.  I've talked to plenty of folks on the lifts in my wanderings in the northeast who have never skied out west and have plans to fly to ski.  I was completely taken by surprise by a man who had never heard of Alta.  He said it must be an unpopular place.  He's been skiing in MA/VT/NH for decades and hasn't even ventured into NY.  Was only a little curious about mountains out west because his adult son was starting to consider the idea.  His 20-something son with a good job is part of the target market for Epic or Ikon or MCP, but not him.  A few of the ladies I met at Jiminy have skied out west.  But not likely to consider a multi-resort pass.  Not for one week perhaps every 4-5 years.  Travel costs are far more significant than lift tickets for a family trip.

While I fly to ski at destination resorts out west based on the MCP, I'm far more interested in checking out places like Tenney or Magic or Berkshire East in the northeast.  Perhaps partially because the people I meet at places like that are more fun to chat with.  Driving from NC to ski in the northeast . . . I'm definitely not normal. :-)

Ah, the Master Plan from 2013 allows CB to add lifts that would serve intermediate terrain.

https://www.denverpost.com/2014/11/06/crested-butte-adds-steep-deep-terrain-this-season-with-teo-2-bowls/

" . . .
Under its 2013 master plan, the resort could eventually add two lifts and more intermediate terrain deeper into the Teocalli drainage, which feeds the East River below the scenic Elk Range.

“While this may only be expert terrain now, we are very much focused on providing a family experience back there when the Teocalli Drainage is fully expanded into,” Crested Butte Mountain Resort general manager Michael Kraatz said in a statement. “For now, it is something to get excited about here in Crested Butte; checking out new terrain, on a new aspect of our mountain, in deep powder all while looking out to exceptional views.”
. . ."

While I may share something in common with recreational skiers, I think there is a difference. How many of recreational skiers consider skiing their primary activity, started a website, set an alarm for 2:30 am to get first chair at Magic, etc, etc...

Harvey wrote

While I may share something in common with recreational skiers, I think there is a difference. How many of recreational skiers consider skiing their primary activity, started a website, set an alarm for 2:30 am to get first chair at Magic, etc, etc...

What you have in common with northeast rec skiers who I've talked to is that driving to ski "locally" is what they do.  Some with just as much passion as you have.  The ladies at Jiminy mostly were working.  But were skiing for a couple hours before starting to work just because it was a powder day.  Took them all more time than usual to get there because of how bad the roads with after 15-20 inches of snow in the previous 24 hours.  I know of plenty of folks in Boston who do day trips to NH, or families in CT or RI who make the drive to northern VT on weekends with their kids.

My personal interests include multiple regions beyond my home region, which is the Mid-Atlantic and Southeast.  The surprise this season was talking to a few people who live in CA and OR and have never been east of Colorado.  Some of the articles I read from out west make a bit more sense now.  It's weird talking to someone who has no clue that driving from Washington DC to Boston is not a matter of a couple hours.  Or that going to ski at Whiteface from NYC requires hours of driving for a weekend trip.

The parents who drive 10 hours from Florida to Snowshoe in WV . . . they must be primary targets for Alterra with Ikon.  Apparently Vail Resorts is thinking about how to gain a foothold in the "DMV" aka DC/Maryland/Virginia.

To get back to Vail Resorts . . . the 2018 third quarter report was released on 6/7.  Includes expenses related to buying Triple Peaks and Stevens Pass.  Do the numbers look good?

http://investors.vailresorts.com/news-releases/news-release-details/vail-resorts-reports-fiscal-2018-third-quarter-results-and-early

The description of the Triple Peaks resorts by Vail Marketing when they were added to the Epic pass says a lot about what was of interest.  Emphasizes that CB has good terrain for all abilities, not just great "lift-served extreme terrain."  The drive time from NYC and Boston is in the lead sentence for Okemo.  Sunapee is described as "the closest major ski area to metropolitan New England" meaning Boston.

http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/stocks/news/press_release.asp?docTag=201803141222PR_NEWS_USPRX____LA39262&feedID=600&press_symbol=206692

"Crested Butte is located in southwest Colorado, within the Gunnison National Forest and the Elk Mountain Range and is known for its colorful historic town, iconic mountain peaks and legendary skiing and riding terrain. The resort's 1,547 skiable acres offer something for every skiing ability; over half the mountain is geared to intermediate and beginner skiers while also perfectly suited for the more adventurous skiers and snowboarders with some of the best lift-served extreme terrain in North America. The Town of Crested Butte boasts one of Colorado's largest National Historic Districts and is commonly considered by many to be "Colorado's Last Great Ski Town" with its variety of boutiques, restaurants and après-ski hot spots.

Rising above the village of Ludlow, in southcentral Vermont approximately three hours from Boston and four hours from New York City, Okemo Mountain Resort is a four-season playground that developed a reputation for quality and superior guest service as a winter retreat for skiers and snowboarders. Originally a small, community-run ski hill, Okemo underwent a significant transformation in 1982 when Tim and Diane Mueller purchased the ski area. Okemo consistently receives accolades and wins awards for snow quality, grooming, terrain parks, family programs, slopeside lodging, resort dining and its friendly employees.

Mount Sunapee is a four-season family-focused ski area with breathtaking views overlooking Lake Sunapee. Located in southern New Hampshire, it is the closest major ski area to metropolitan New England, being only a short 90-minute drive from Boston. For many years, Mount Sunapee has consistently received industry awards for excellence in snowmaking and grooming."

marznc wrote

 The surprise this season was talking to a few people who live in CA and OR and have never been east of Colorado.  Some of the articles I read from out west make a bit more sense now.  

This really surprised you?  Why would someone who lives in California come to the east coast to ski?  It's one thing if you were on the east coast visiting people and went skiing but to make the trip from Cali to the east coast just to ski makes no sense to me.  You can find much better ski terrain and snow between California and Colorado. Doesn't seem surprising in the least bit.

Marcski wrote

marznc wrote

 The surprise this season was talking to a few people who live in CA and OR and have never been east of Colorado.  Some of the articles I read from out west make a bit more sense now.  

This really surprised you?  Why would someone who lives in California come to the east coast to ski?  It's one thing if you were on the east coast visiting people and went skiing but to make the trip from Cali to the east coast just to ski makes no sense to me.  You can find much better ski terrain and snow between California and Colorado. Doesn't seem surprising in the least bit.

Not talking about skiing.  Of course there is no reason to travel east to ski unless you have a business trip or family to visit.  Just as there was little reason for someone in New England to use the MAX Pass to ski at Snowshoe in WV.  I was talking about not knowing where ANYTHING is in the northeast.  Simply no clue about that part of the country.  Just as people who have lived their whole life in New England have little sense of the south or California.  I traveled with my family a lot outside the U.S. growing up, so used to people in other countries not knowing about America.  I had culture shock moving from NYC to central NC in the 1970s.  Just hadn't ever considered the pure west coast viewpoint about the entire east coast even though I've traveled there often enough.

Fair to say that the coverage in CO or OR/WA of the recent sale barely mentions Okemo or Sunapee.  Crested Butte is the only location of the four that gets attention from multiple regions.

The Street liked Vails earnings report.  Up almost 5% today

marznc wrote

Marcski wrote

marznc wrote

 The surprise this season was talking to a few people who live in CA and OR and have never been east of Colorado.  Some of the articles I read from out west make a bit more sense now.  

This really surprised you?  Why would someone who lives in California come to the east coast to ski?  It's one thing if you were on the east coast visiting people and went skiing but to make the trip from Cali to the east coast just to ski makes no sense to me.  You can find much better ski terrain and snow between California and Colorado. Doesn't seem surprising in the least bit.

Not talking about skiing.  Of course there is no reason to travel east to ski unless you have a business trip or family to visit.  Just as there was little reason for someone in New England to use the MAX Pass to ski at Snowshoe in WV.  I was talking about not knowing where ANYTHING is in the northeast.  Simply no clue about that part of the country.  Just as people who have lived their whole lift in New England have little sense of the south or California.  I traveled with my family a lot outside the U.S. growing up, so used to people in other countries not knowing about America.  I had culture shock moving from NYC to central NC in the 1970s.  Just hadn't ever considered the pure west coast viewpoint about the entire east coast even though I've traveled there often enough.

Fair to say that the coverage in CO or OR/WA of the recent sale barely mentions Okemo or Sunapee.  Crested Butte is the only location of the four that gets attention from multiple regions.

Ahh, I misunderstood.  But, again not so surprising.  Most Americans are horrible when it comes to geography, both with regard to our own country and even worse internationally.

 

Z wrote

The Street liked Vails earnings report.  Up almost 5% today

I skimmed the official report, but interesting to how the Vail Daily reported the news.  And what the Motley Fool was looking for a few days beforehand.  I noticed the comments about the Military pass bringing in new passholders.  Also the note about some late season purchases in the fall for 2017-18 are included in the "spring growth."  Some advanced/expert Aussies who ski North America regularly are pretty excited about the addition of Crested Butte and Stevens Pass.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/06/03/vail-resorts-earnings-preview-what-to-watch.aspx

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/vail-resorts-third-quarter-shows-positive-results-from-ski-season-pass-sales/
 
http://investors.vailresorts.com/news-releases/news-release-details/vail-resorts-reports-fiscal-2018-third-quarter-results-and-early

* * *
Season Pass Sales

Commenting on the Company's season pass sales for the upcoming 2018/2019 North American ski season, Katz said, "We are very pleased with the results for our season pass sales to date. Excluding sales of our Military Epic pass products, pass sales through May 29, 2018 for the upcoming 2018/2019 North American ski season increased approximately 12% in units and approximately 19% in sales dollars, as compared to the prior year period through May 30, 2017. Our spring pass sales included strong growth across nearly all markets, with continued strong performance among our destination guests in the U.S. and internationally. We had particularly strong pass sales in Whistler Blackcomb's regional market, with solid growth in Colorado and Tahoe, despite the challenging conditions experienced throughout the season in those regions. As a result of the strength of our network and the new resort partnerships we entered into, our premium Epic Pass has been the fastest growing product among all of our pass products this year. In addition to all of these results, we also saw very strong sales of our new Military Epic Pass, with huge enthusiasm and engagement from current and past members of the armed forces. We saw significant Military Epic Pass sales to new guests, as well as to guests who had previously purchased one of our season pass products. We are still in the processes of verifying our new Military Epic Pass sales and will be releasing additional information on those results in the fall. Whistler Blackcomb pass products are included in both current and prior year, adjusted to eliminate the impact of foreign currency by applying current period exchange rates to the prior period. It is important to note that a portion of our spring growth includes passholders who purchased 2017/18 North American ski season passes last fall."

Regarding Epic Australia Pass sales, Katz commented, "Perisher's 2018 ski season kicks off this weekend and we are very pleased with ongoing sales of the Epic Australia Pass, which end on June 12, 2018, and are up 19% in units through June 3, 2018, as compared to the prior year period through June 4, 2017. Epic Australia Pass sales have benefited from the addition of Hakuba Valley in Japan under a long-term pass alliance, which is an extremely popular option with Australian skiers and snowboarders."
* * *

And there’s a lot of people out here in the west that are mourning the death of a soulful Crested Butte.

I don’t know what affects it’s going to have on the Butte but it was/is one of this country’s great mountain towns.

Anecdotal story from yesterday:

Told my doctor that I ski in the winter (to keep active....). He asked where---when I told him Gore he questioned why I would go there--its so cold. When he skis he flies out west. So there's your demographic I suppose.

Why do I ski @ Gore? Because it has legit terrain and is an hour away.

raisingarizona wrote

And there’s a lot of people out here in the west that are mourning the death of a soulful Crested Butte.

I don’t know what affects it’s going to have on the Butte but it was/is one of this country’s great mountain towns.

But was CB Resort failing from a business standpoint for lack of money for planned improvements and expansion?  Somewhere I read about decreasing tax revenue for the town of CB.  Don't remember if that was recently or before the sale to the Muellers.

Have come across a few articles with quotes from CB business people who are cautiously optimistic that the sale will help in the near future.

I'm reading a book about the history of ski resort architecture in the U.S. from the 1930s thru 2000.  When Aspen was developed in the 1940s, there were locals who resented in influx of money and outsiders.  But without the continued changes for skiing and the arts after WWII, the town of Aspen could have ended up just another mining ghost town.  Taos opened in 1954 by the sheer force of Ernie Blake's stubbornness and personality, and succeeded because Jean Mayer and his family became just as determined to make TSV succeed.  The Taos Ski Week was a key factor as were trainloads of skiers from Chicago.  Even so, lack of money was an ongoing issue until Louis Bacon come to the rescue a few years ago.  Crested Butte entered the game relatedly late, not until the 1960s.  Telluride Resort was founded in 1972 after the town had become a ghost town.  The free gondola at Telluride that connects the town with the mountain is unique.  CB's ownership history seems less consistent than TSV and Telluride.

marznc wrote

But was CB Resort failing from a business standpoint for lack of money for planned improvements and expansion?  Somewhere I read about decreasing tax revenue for the town of CB.  Don't remember if that was recently or before the sale to the Muellers.

Have come across a few articles with quotes from CB business people who are cautiously optimistic that the sale will help in the near future.

Ya, CB has always struggled. Even if locals reluctantly accept the purchase it may be a blessing in disguise but I have no idea how any of this will work out for them. An announcement like this is always going to get the "sky is falling" crowd to vocalize their opinions but in reality it might be what they needed. All I can say is that it's always been a favorite place of mine and hopefully it's character and what makes CB special will be preserved.

One thing that Vail can't change is CB's difficult location, it's rugged terrain and the bitter cold that valley gets through a lot of the winter.

The place would do a lot better if they had some more intermediate terrain. It doesn't have very much of that. It's either kind of flat or balls to the wall steep. The latter serves up some of the best technical steep terrain in the country. It's gnarly!

raisingarizona wrote

Ya, CB has always struggled. Even if locals reluctantly accept the purchase it may be a blessing in disguise but I have no idea how any of this will work out for them. An announcement like this is always going to get the "sky is falling" crowd to vocalize their opinions but in reality it might be what they needed. All I can say is that it's always been a favorite place of mine and hopefully it's character and what makes CB special will be preserved.

One thing that Vail can't change is CB's difficult location, it's rugged terrain and the bitter cold that valley gets through a lot of the winter.

The place would do a lot better if they had some more intermediate terrain. It doesn't have very much of that. It's either kind of flat or balls to the wall steep. The latter serves up some of the best technical steep terrain in the country. It's gnarly!

Can't remember which article, but the expansion plan includes eventually adding blue trails.

Reading about the cold temps was one reason I decided not to join some SkiSE folks who did a CB trip about 10 years ago.  Plus I wasn't skiing off-piste that much yet.  Definitely helps to be skiing something more complicated than a groomer when it's on the frigid side.  With snowmaking in the right places during early season, the cold at CB could be an advantage in the next few decades.  Plenty of people looking for a less crowded destination resort for the Christmas holidays.

Vail Resort itself, Aspen, and Telluride aren't exactly in the most accessible locations.  Some people fly into the local airports.  But a lot of people drive or shuttle from Denver for Vail or Aspen.  But those resorts had owners with deep pockets and opened up when operation costs and building lifts weren't as expensive.