Vail buys Peak

marznc wrote

When I was at the Boston Ski Expo in Nov 2018, the Gore person I talked with really wanted people to let Ikon know that having Gore as a partner was of interest.  That one year on the MAX Pass was enough to show that people from CT/MA or even VT will drive to the ORDA mountains for a day or even an overnight trip if they don't have to pay for a day ticket.

It's good to know ORDA wanted to be on Ikon. I've been thinking that ORDA lost too many pass sales to Max Pass. It didn't seem to me that Max Pass generated a lot of out of town business at Gore or Whiteface. I like Gore because I'm a local and I know my way around, but if I were a groomer only skier, I would have hard time driving by Mt Snow or Killington or even Stratton to ski any of the ORDA joints.

I think Z is right that Epic/Ikon leaves ORDA in a difficult spot. I causes ORDA losses but joining doesn't add much value for them. Unless I'm completely wrong because I don't really understand the business.

mm

At least with the Ikon pass - the only mountain that had unlimited days on the East Coast was Stratton (which got slammed last season).  If you are a Killington season pass holder Ikon did nothing for you.   Vail may offer unlimited riding at Okemo and Mt Snow at the highest tiered levels.  

IMHO with regards to Orda - It comes down to customer segmentation by mountain.

Gore seems like a heavily locals dominated mountain, with most of the revenue coming from the Capital region, and I would guess, a majority coming from season passes, or at least early purchase ticket bundles.  Other then the major holidays I would guess that Gore doesn't do a ton of day of ticket sales as a large % of overall revenue - It's just not that kind of a destination resort.  So the Capital region frequent skier locals still don't have any better options, and I actually think Gore's value improves compared to the insane crowds at the Vail and Ikon mountains.  

WF may be a different story -  My guess is they do a lot of vacation business, and they are in fact in direct competition with the VT mountains on these passes.

I have no idea what the deal is with Belleayre - Perhaps someone else can pontificate on that one.

If I were ORDA I would keep Gore off the pass - continue to market that as a locals season pass kind of mountain, but do what they can to get WF on it.  

TheGreatAbyss wrote

At least with the Ikon pass - the only mountain that had unlimited days on the East Coast was Stratton (which got slammed last season).  If you are a Killington season pass holder Ikon did nothing for you.   Vail may offer unlimited riding at Okemo and Mt Snow at the highest tiered levels.  

The Full Epic pass includes unlimited access to all VR locations for $939 (ages 13+).  Plus 7 days at the partners (Telluride, Sun Valley, Snowbasin) and limited days in Canada, Japan, Australia, and Europe.  Epic Local is $699 (ages 19+), $569 for teens (13-18).  Epic Local has blackout dates at most of the major destination resorts out west and Stowe, Breck and Keystone are unlimited, Telluride is not included, and 2 days at SV or Snowbasin.  Extra days at the partners are 50% off, like what the MCP provided.

All the Peak resorts are already listed on the Epic pass website, with the caveat about "subject to closing."  Having only one online source for all the pass options certainly makes it easier to make adjustments for an acquisition.  Imagine if all the ski resorts that VR has bought in the last five years had to suddenly incorporate 17 new names into separate ticketing systems.

Since the VR destination resorts aren't of much interest to me, haven't paid attention to the details before.  I checked out Telluride and SV when they were on the MCP.

St. Jerry wrote

Another announcement?  Do tell...

I was expecting that they would announce the acquisition of another privately owned single ski area that is within the vicinity of one of the 17 ski areas they just purchased. However, I'm now wondering if they withdrew their offer based on the current 17 ski area deal. Time will tell, as I don't know the owner well enough to inquire.

marznc wrote

The Full Epic pass includes unlimited access to all VR locations for $939 (ages 13+).

I hear you - I'm just not sure for at least Gore how many people are going to go skiing at Mt. Snow and Okemo instead.  I think WF is the bigger problem for ORDA, and possibly loosing some Belleayre skiers to Hunter.

But if I were a non season pass occasional skier living down here in NYC, and terrain difficulty was a non issue - Epic might be the better value if you think you'll do more than 5 days at Okemo/Mt. Snow/Hunter.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

marznc wrote

The Full Epic pass includes unlimited access to all VR locations for $939 (ages 13+).

I hear you - I'm just not sure for at least Gore how many people are going to go skiing at Mt. Snow and Okemo instead.  I think WF is the bigger problem for ORDA, and possibly loosing some Belleayre skiers to Hunter.

But if I were a non season pass occasional skier living down here in NYC, and terrain difficulty was a non issue - Epic might be the better value if you think you'll do more than 5 days at Okemo/Mt. Snow/Hunter.

Got it.  If I were still living in NYC, I wouldn't be too excited about driving north to ski Mt. Snow or Okemo.  Would rather drive less and go to Plattekill on a weekend, or Belleayre or Hunter midweek.  Getting over into VT is such a pain.

I can't really see getting either Ikon or Epic just for northeast skiing unless someone's home mountain is on the pass.  It's doing a ski vacation out west to a destination resort that makes them potentially worthwhile.  Otherwise a season pass to a convenient ski area that makes someone happy makes more sense, even if it's about the same cost.  If I lived in the Berkshires and wasn't going to travel, would be quite happy with a season pass to Jiminy Peak for midweek skiing off the high-speed 6-pack.

Certainly would be good for the ORDA mountains to be connected to some collection, whether Ikon or Indy or whatever.  I suppose the Freedom Pass isn't really a good fit.  Season passholders get 3 days at the other places.  Includes Magic, Bolton, Plattekill.  The most interesting places out west are Purgatory, AZ Snowbowl, and Sunlight.

marznc wrote

I can't really see getting either Ikon or Epic just for northeast skiing unless someone's home mountain is on the pass.

Unless your home mountain is Stratton, Epic doesn't currently offer unlimited skiing at any of the mountains.  It will be interesting to see if this changes to compete with unlimited skiing at Mt. Snow, Okemo and Hunter that Vail will offer for the same price point.

Last year Hunter sold a 3 pack for 150(i would imagine that is now dead)  Unlimited Epic is around 950..I just don't see the value in fronting Vail almost a 1000$ and hoping I come close to breaking even..

I would think Platt and windham are jumping for joy..If Vail raises Hunters prices significantly , Platt/Windham will be able to raise there prices too..

A friend bought the Stoke Pass add-on to his Epic Pass. I'm thinking about it.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

At least with the Ikon pass - the only mountain that had unlimited days on the East Coast was Stratton (which got slammed last season).  If you are a Killington season pass holder Ikon did nothing for you.   Vail may offer unlimited riding at Okemo and Mt Snow at the highest tiered levels.  

I disagree with the "Stratton got slammed last season comment".
I have been a passholder at Stratton for the last 3 seasons. Last season seemed better for crowding than the previous 2 seasons due to the addition of the Snow Bowl HSQ. Non-holday weekends at Stratton are nowhere near as crowded as "standard Stratton is crowded" comments would lead you to believe. Usually the worst examples of lift lines and crowding are driven by weather/wind holds.

ORDA would be smart to join Ikon or Epic.

x10003q wrote

TheGreatAbyss wrote

At least with the Ikon pass - the only mountain that had unlimited days on the East Coast was Stratton (which got slammed last season).  If you are a Killington season pass holder Ikon did nothing for you.   Vail may offer unlimited riding at Okemo and Mt Snow at the highest tiered levels.  

ORDA would be smart to join Ikon or Epic.

ORDA was part of Max Pass, and either they decided not to re-up with Ikon or Ikon didn't want them. I don't think they're gonna join any group.

Hunter (and Windham) provide way more access to a much larger market than ORDA or any of the remaining independents.

mm

The reality with Orda is nothing will get until the Weibrects and Lussi’s start having empty hotel rooms on weekends and then a deal will be made post haste to join most likely Ikon as that is the remains of Max pass.

Speaking of the Peak Pass, my daughter's arrived today. What is the deal with the piece of stretchy material about 10" by 16" or so that they included in the packet? What the hell is it for? There's no explanation of it.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

marznc wrote

I can't really see getting either Ikon or Epic just for northeast skiing unless someone's home mountain is on the pass.

Unless your home mountain is Stratton, IKON doesn't currently offer unlimited skiing at any of the mountains [in the northeast].  It will be interesting to see if this changes to compete with unlimited skiing at Mt. Snow, Okemo and Hunter that Vail will offer for the same price point.

Fixed it for you.

Alterra only owns Stratton and Tremblant in the northeast because those were Intrawest.  Get unlimited at Tremblant with either Full or Base Ikon.  Get unlimited at Stratton with Full Ikon and 5 days with Base Ikon.

The Ikon partner resorts in the northeast belong to Boyne Resorts.  Since Boyne has it's own multi-resort season pass and discounts at other Boyne resorts for 1-resort passholders, I doubt Boyne has any reason to change what is offered as an Ikon partner.  Someone with a season pass to Loon, Sunday River, and/or Sugarloaf can get Big Sky lift tickets for 50% off.  That's new for 2019-20.  Boyne only bought back all the resorts they sold to CNL a couple years ago.

Milo Maltbie wrote

ORDA was part of Max Pass, and either they decided not to re-up with Ikon or Ikon didn't want them. I don't think they're gonna join any group.

Hunter (and Windham) provide way more access to a much larger market than ORDA or any of the remaining independents.

mm

ORDA was only on the MAX Pass for the final year.  Given that Intrawest sold out to the company that became Alterra right after that and that the MAX Pass list was huge that season, seemed like a bit of a desperation reach for cash.  Most of the MAX locations were Intrawest, Boyne, or Powdr.  I think that was before Boyne came up with the funding to buy back the northeast resorts and Brighton, which had been sold to CNL, and then EPR.  Boyne kept control of Big Sky, Boyne Mountain, Boyne Highlands.

I know people in CT and MA who would be swayed to pay a little more for Ikon over Epic if the ORDA mountains were included.  A few in RI too.  They really liked the line up for the final year of the MAX Pass.  Quite disappointed when that didn't continue.  I would expect folks in Philly, NJ, NYC to find the idea of being able to check out Whiteface and Lake Placid for a driving trip to be of interest.  Straightforward drive up the Thruway to the Northway.  Perhaps not every year, but I could see someone alternating Ikon and Epic.

 I would expect folks in Philly, NJ, NYC to find the idea of being able to check out Whiteface and Lake Placid for a driving trip to be of interest.  Straightforward drive up the Thruway to the Northway.


Totally agree.  As I hypothesized earlier it seems critical that ORDA get WF on the IKON pass.  Gore will probably be fine without given the locals market.  Not sure about Belle.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

I love the mental imagery of some Hunter Mountain Yahoos taking a trip to Vail or Beaver Creek.  Those wealthy Euros better clutch the pearls and hide the furs.

Reminds me of a time I travelled to Whistler for a week with the Staten Island Ski Club way back. They had a house at Hunter and Killington. Not the most sophisticated people, and quite the drinkers. But, watching them deal with tough stuff at Whistler was proof that, if you can handle steep, tight bumps at Hunter, you can handle a lot out west. Watching the Napoli brothers, both teenagers and looking like they spent their childhopds eating way too much good pastas and pizza, attack tree chutes with icy bumps was quite the eye opener. I dare the "wealthy Euros" to keep up.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

MarzNC wrote

 I would expect folks in Philly, NJ, NYC to find the idea of being able to check out Whiteface and Lake Placid for a driving trip to be of interest.  Straightforward drive up the Thruway to the Northway.

Totally agree.  As I hypothesized earlier it seems critical that ORDA get WF on the IKON pass.  Gore will probably be fine without given the locals market.  Not sure about Belle.

I introduced a friends from CT to Belle during early season the year it was on Max Pass.  Their favorite "local" mountain is Stratton.  Wife is a cautious intermediate skier, husband is an advanced boarder who switched from skiing when wife started skiing.  They liked Belle quite a bit.  And that was just before the gondola from the base was open to the public.  I think Belle is a fun mountain for a mixed-ability group that includes beginners and intermediates, as well as advanced skiers who want to spend part of the time on black terrain.

Between Belle and Hunter, I liked Belle better.  But have only been a couple days and never mid-season.  In typical northeast conditions, I'm not looking for the challenge of trees or steeps unless I catch the rare powder storms.  I get enough of that when I take trips out west to big mountains.  So cruising blues or doing soft bumps in warmer weather is what I tend to do for "tourist skiing" checking out ski areas/resorts in NY or New England.  The objective is to ride all the lifts and ski as many different trails as possible for future reference, as opposed to be trying to maximize vertical.

Darkside Shaman wrote

billyymc wrote

How long until they make a deal to buy the NYS owned mountains? Maybe they'll just buy the Adirondacks.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/peak-resorts-to-be-acquired-by-vail-resorts-for-11-00-per-share-1028371282

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/22/stocks-making-the-biggest-moves-premarket-equifax-vail-resorts-halliburton-cbs-disney-more.html

It will never happen, as it would require a constitutional amendment from NYS, which with the dis-function that NYS gov't operates, is impossible

Thankfully, a constitutional convention cannot happen in NYS for another 23 years.

Benny Profane wrote

I dare the "wealthy Euros" to keep up.

My joke wasn't about the skiing ability, but about Hunter being "Jersey Shore North", and picturing the cast of the Jersey Shore running rampant among Beaver Creeks upscale clientele.

(clip from the show Entourage where they reference Hunter)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14-ifN8aTu4

The trope is a dead horse, my apologies for bringing it up and beating it one last time.