Watch out for unintended consequences when tweaking your equipment

Saw this in another thread:

 Next Eric set me up on Rossi assult 82 ti and set the binding 1 cm forward from the norm. This was done to help me out of the back seat.

A lot of changes people make to their equipment has the opposite effect of what they're looking for. Moving your bindings forward will not get you out of the back seat. Getting out of the back seat will get you out of the back seat. Moving your bindings forward will do a lot of things (the shorter relative tip will be easier to turn, flotation in powder may be decreased, etc.), but it will not correct your technique deficiencies.

Now, I just had a pair of skis mounted pretty far forward (almost center mount). I found that I had to ride them in a more "relaxed" way (i.e. I had to shift my center of mass rearward more than I'm used to). This is not the same thing as "getting out of the back seat". In fact, one could argue that I'm more in the back seat on these skis than I am on my other setups.

My general point is that you have to be careful about trying to correct technique problems with equipment tweaks. Sometimes I hear that people use heel lifters to get them out of the "back seat". Usually, this puts your body in a position where you need to be MORE in the back seat to compensate for lifted heels (try it yourself: get in a balanced, ready position on the balls of your feet. Now get on your toes, lifting your heels higher. Where does your butt go?). Generally, the people who think they need heel lifters to correct back seat issues could actually benefit from toe lifters.

Equipment tweaks are generally best for biomechanical corrections (footbeds to correct alignment issues because of unique foot shapes, external canting to prevent knock knees or bow legs, etc.). If you have problems with your technique, ski better. If you need help skiing better, I suggest you take a lesson. People like Coach Z (or me, I guess) can fix the root of the problem instead of trying to apply some weird equipment fix that might turn your bad habits into permanent problems.

Amen

I just went thru the issue of trying to get my boots set up after my other ones got taken out in a fire.   I do use heel lifts but not bring me out of the back seat.  I have limited dorsiflexion so my boots have too much forward lean - I need 3/8" of heel lift to bring my ability to flex the boot in line with forward lean of my boot.  I had only 1/8" at first and had a hard skiing well because my leg could not flex enough and I was too far forward in the boot.

Matt is totally correct - boot work, cants and binding changes are all counter intuitive - meaning you actually need to move in opposite direction from what at first you might think.  

I'm also a avid golfer and the same goes for golf and skiing.  You cannot fix your slice with a new club - you can fix your slice by fixing your swing by consulting your golf pro. The worlds best skis or equipemnt mods are not going to magically fix being in the back seat.  The only thing that fixes balancing in the aft direction is the skier changing their stance and learning how to properly use their tools (skis).

Coach Z wrote

I'm also a avid golfer and the same goes for golf and skiing.  You cannot fix your slice with a new club - you can fix your slice by fixing your swing by consulting your golf pro. The worlds best skis or equipemnt mods are not going to magically fix being in the back seat.  The only thing that fixes balancing in the aft direction is the skier changing their stance and learning how to properly use their tools (skis).

+ 1,000,000

Can't count how many mediocre golfers continue to but the newest/latest/greatest clubs(esp Drivers) to help their game when the results will be the same because the mechanics of the swing aren't corrected. Same goes for a lot of skiers, I crack up watching some guys using the legs pasted together, leaning back, double pole planting, throwing head from side to side on the newest skiis out there.(all the while thinking they are making great turns)  They might as well be on their 30-40 yr old straight skiis they learned the technique on.

I agree with what has been said. It's very important to make sure a person has the correct equipment to begin with----too many people in golf buy stiff or extra stiff shafts when in reality it's counter productive to their swings. Same with skis, how many of us have seen a skier on top of the line skis that they couldn't flex falling off a roof-----simply crazy

From my other posts you probably know that I am a big fan of dialing in your boots with custom insoles and other tweeks - this will improve your comfort and performance but some things can only be improved the good ol fashion way of fixing the technique.

The begining point here in Matt's thread was that someone in a shop made a equipment adjustment promising an improvement.  Ask the shop you are working with if have been trained in boot fitting by Masterfit University.  That is the gold standard in boot fitting training.  There is two levels of certification from Masterfit - ask what level course they have taken.  The best guys out there also may be podortists and trainers for Masterfit.

I highly recomend Richard at Inside Edge in Queensbury.  Many others I know swear by Green Mt Orthonics at Stratton.  I'm sure there are more that other readers can add.  As I recently found out when I got by new boots set up post fire while many others talk a good boot fitting game the results may vary.  Great boot fitters are tough to find and even I could not tell the differnce until I got on snow and found out I had wasted my time and money elsewhere and had less than optimal ski performance as a result.

I don't disagree with what everyone has said. But remember I was demoing skis and when I explained what I liked and didn't like, Eric suggested miving the binding forward as part of the next demo. Kudos to him for listening to the skier (an advanced intermediate - not an expert). I tried it and the whole package seemed to work. Probably I should try the skis with the bindings back to the "normal" position. It is certainly possible I'd like the setup better that way.

There is no doubt that my technique needs lost of improvement and I've taken lessions to try and improve but have found that my body has trouble doing new stuff at my age.

tom

mattchuck2 wrote

Equipment tweaks are generally best for biomechanical corrections (footbeds to correct alignment issues because of unique foot shapes, external canting to prevent knock knees or bow legs, etc.). If you have problems with your technique, ski better. If you need help skiing better, I suggest you take a lesson. People like Coach Z (or me, I guess) can fix the root of the problem instead of trying to apply some weird equipment fix that might turn your bad habits into permanent problems.

Gosh this just makes so much sense to me.  I've never focused much on equipment specs and I'm not even sure I'd notice the difference in (for example) the mounting position of a binding, I just know the general performance characteristics and feel of gear that "works" for me.  Your point is very well take Matt, and goes back to the old saying "a bad carpenter always blames his tools" and its correlary "there's no such thing as bad snow, just bad skiers."

That said, I fully recognize that I am no paragon of technique.  I don't necessarily feel there's anything "wrong" with my technique, but I think I could really benefit from some lessons to step up to a more advanced level and maybe identify and correct some bad habits.  $500 spent on lessons would no doubt make me a much better skier than $500 spent on new skis.

I've always believed in experimenting so that you can understand what works and what doesn't. The Salomon SX92 allowed you to make all kinds of adjustments. I found out that too much heel lift can make you feel like you're trapped on a runaway train; too little can make you unable to get out of the back seat. Same thing with adjustable forward lean (which I think is just a bad option to have on a boot -- if the boot is properly designed, it's totally unnecessary). I got Petersen footbeds at Inside Edge in 1996 right before going to Aspen. I was able to go to Surefoot in Aspen and ask them to grind down the heels to reduce the heel lift, only because I knew that a bit too much heel lift was the problem. They've been perfect ever since.

A major caveat. If you do experiment, try it out on an easy slope first -- don't go straight to a double diamond.

Although I agree with the basic premise here I must say that having the equipment right is also important. I would never cant a boot or move a binding forward to correct a basic technique problem like back seat driving. I would recommend keeping a ski well tuned or staying off terrain which is beyond the skiers ability to prevent the development of bad habits which become almost impossible to break once they take hold. I would also recommend skiing a super short training ski or ski blades or skiing with boots unbuckled to train for better balance, but only as an exercise.

mattchuck2 wrote

 Watch out for unintended consequences when tweaking your equipment

Possibly the best thread title ever.

Excited to actually READ the thread later tonight.