Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Any chemists out there?  Or people who don't think waxing is a great way to spend an evening?

DPS is offering a new product called Phantom that is called a Permanent Base Glide Treatment for skis and snowboards.  Regular price expected to be $100 to treat one pair of skis or one snowboard.  R&D took about a year.  Testing was done in New Zealand and South America during the summer of 2017.

The Kickstarter campaign met the goal on Day 1 of a 30-day campaign.  Already over $50,000 from almost 500 people.  DPS did an eBlast to their eList and promoted on Facebook.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dpsskis/phantom-permanent-base-glide-treatment-for-skis-an/description

Check out the video and write up then discuss. :-)

I'm not a chemist but I did read the page. What wasn't clear to me was whether one can apply the product at home or if it needs to done at shop, equipped with some specialized gear. From the packaging, it looks like a DIY thing.

Clearly not aimed at the racing market, but at average skiers like us. As someone who keeps their skis for a while and isn't fussy about waxing, I would consider it on the next new pair of skis I get, though the price is a bit steep for my taste.

One and done, to get better performance than I usually have?  I’d be interested.

So, it permeates the base material, which is good.  Problem I see.....if you need some base repair at any time you would end up with small untreated areas base.  Maybe they’d be small enough to not affect performance?

My reading is that you should keep any leftover Phantom to treat any Ptex repairs.

Read somewhere that for racers, could add wax in addition.  The theory is that if the racing wax has worn off during a race then might have better performance because of the Phantom embedded in the base.  As opposed to a relatively bare base once the racing wax is gone.

The FAQ are worth reading if interested to know a little more.

From the FAQ:

Q) Can I apply the treatment at home, and can I do it myself?

A) Phantom can be applied at home or by a ski or snowboard shop. The home application process takes about 20 minutes, with 6 hours of additional ‘drying’ time for Phantom to fully penetrate the base.

Having really gotten into waxing as a race dad as well as my background with ski mfrs im having a hard time understanding how this really could be effective and not Marketing BS

How is anything non toxic and green going to penatrate deeply enough to stay in the base even thru a stone grind?  Hot boxing is the best way to get wax deep.

If this exists and is the real deal why wouldn’t they lisc or sell the rights to one of the big boys and incorporate it into the ptex instead of crowdfunding it.  

Wax also keeps the base from getting dried out and stay flat- does this do that?

Z wrote

Having really gotten into waxing as a race dad as well as my background with ski mfrs im having a hard time understanding how this really could be effective and not Marketing BS

How is anything non toxic and green going to penatrate deeply enough to stay in the base even thru a stone grind?  Hot boxing is the best way to get wax deep.

If this exists and is the real deal why wouldn’t they lisc or sell the rights to one of the big boys and incorporate it into the ptex instead of crowdfunding it.  

Wax also keeps the base from getting dried out and stay flat- does this do that?

Good questions.  Exactly what I was hoping for from knowledgeable NYSkiBlog folks.

Which "big boys" are you thinking about?  A ski manufacturer?  That would be a DPS competitor.  Certainly not a maker of ski wax.

I wax my own skis every so often, but also let good shops take care of them too.  I have avoided tuning.  Don't know that much about waxes.  What I do know is how DPS has managed to promote and develop their skis.  When I get lucky and catch a powder day at Alta, one of my go to brands for renting powder skis is DPS.  The Alta Ski Shop is one of their major dealers.  Demo skis sell out early, meaning usually by the end of Feb.  I was introduced to DPS skis at an Alta Demo Day a while ago by a friend who is an expert skier who really likes the skis and the company.  He's a successful business analyst and consultant.

DPS has a patent pending on Phantom.  The materials scientists who helped come up with the formulation are with the Univ. of Utah School of Engineering.  Given the level of buzz DPS has created in a day, using Kickstarter is giving them quite a boost from the marketing standpoint of being an environmentally friendly company.  They got endorsements from SKI, Freeskier, and Snowboard Magazine.

Do ski manufacturers usually employ material scientists?

What do you think of this Q&A?

Q) Does Phantom change the appearance of the skis?

A) Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts take its toll. At this point, a stone grind will freshen the appearance to new.

I just don’t see how this could penatrate the base to the level that a stone grind would refresh it.  When you stone grind a hot boxed ski you need to hot box it again as you are removing part of the base and with it the wax.   It’s a destructive process and there is only so much base thickness.  

DPS is essentially an indie ski brand with a microscopic market share.  They don’t really compete with the likes of Rossi, volkl and atomic.

Z wrote

DPS is essentially an indie ski brand with a microscopic market share.  They don’t really compete with the likes of Rossi, volkl and atomic.

While I agree DPS is not like the major companies, it's not exactly a tiny indie brand either.  Not with 500 dealers worldwide.  In a July 2017 announcement when DPS became an official supplier for PSIA, DPS was described as "the market leader in big mountain, deep powder skiing by establishing  #1 market share in the 100mm+ waist-width category (according to market research firm NPD Group)."

I've watched enough Kickstarter campaigns to know when one is going viral because of work done before the campaign was launched.  Phantom has 600 backers for almost $70,000 after less than 24 hours.  Could easily bring in $1 million and could be as much as $2 million according to Kicktraq.

Articles like the one in the Denver Post made a difference quickly.  Notes that "The application takes time. Treated skis and snowboards need to spend a few hours in the sunshine to get the UV light-activated Phantom to penetrate ski bases. DPS tests show the presence of Phantom remains even after several base grinds. Essentially it becomes part of the skis’ base. So instead of putting Phantom on skis, it goes in skis, DPS says."

http://theknow.denverpost.com/2017/11/01/ski-wax-maintenance-dps-skis-utah/165018/

Well, turns out there is another company is already selling a spray product that also makes use of hydrophobic properties for ski bases.  Look No Wax is a UK company and the product is called Juice (another silly name).  Price point is similar.  My impression is that Look No Wax decided to focus on the short term version, Pocket Juice, instead of pushing Permanent Juice that is meant as a one-time treatment for the life of a pair of skis.  Pocket Juice is $20-25 and comes in a small spray bottle.

I found an obsolete webpage with images at high magnification.  The slick website doesn't have those images. ;-)

http://looknowax.wixsite.com/juice/the-science

https://looknowax.com

"JUICE Permanent is a molecular treatment that uses nano-sized particles to alter and enhance the hydrophobic (water-repellent) properties of materials used to make skis and snowboards. At the same time, the base material becomes more resistant to damage such as small scratches and the dreaded "P-Tex hairs" that appear as base materials degrade (not just p-tex but all other manufacturers of UHMWPE base materials, either extruded or sintered). This allows the already-enhanced performance to be maintained."

JD Prince appears to have a patent for his (Derek Prince) version of a glide treatment: "A ski (10) including a base layer (12) made from permeable material, wherein the base layer (12) is treated with a composition comprising at least one chemical component to confer hydrophobicity with a water contact angle of greater than 120° to the base layer (2) and a carrier fluid for the chemical component, the composition permeating the material of the base layer (12) and modified the material to be hydrophobic throughout its volume."

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2016042323A1?cl=en

https://youtu.be/9gIQKKwBDPw

JTG4eva! wrote

One and done, to get better performance than I usually have?  I’d be interested.
 

Same here

for a hundred bucks I'd give it a shot ---- gawd knows I've wasted a 100 on worse things

I don't know if I will put it on good skis but on my CC/BC country ski I will give it a shot.  It works because it is from the upsidedown.  

Most skiers don't wax at all and probably prefer a slower ski or couldn't tell if their skis were waxed or not. Racers are not going for this until they know it's faster. That leaves a pretty small market.

If this stuff works, why not just apply it at the factory? Approximately no one knows the nano-properties of ski bases and waxes, so no one can dispute any claim.  Skiers have lots of discretionary cash, so it's easy for a shop to upsell you $100.  It sounds to me like a borderline scam.

OTOH after along engineering career I've learned never to dismiss anything just because I don't understand it.

mm  

Milo Maltbie wrote

Most skiers don't wax at all and probably prefer a slower ski or couldn't tell if their skis were waxed or not. Racers are not going for this until they know it's faster. That leaves a pretty small market.

If this stuff works, why not just apply it at the factory? Approximately no one knows the nano-properties of ski bases and waxes, so no one can dispute any claim.  Skiers have lots of discretionary cash, so it's easy for a shop to upsell you $100.  It sounds to me like a borderline scam.

OTOH after along engineering career I've learned never to dismiss anything just because I don't understand it.

mm

I think the skiers who actually buy skis do end up waxing one way or another.  Most do not wax themselves but instead pay a shop.  Even those who have learned to wax at home don't all enjoy the process.  That's the type of skier I represent.

DPS is looking at the skiers who buy new skis every 4 years or so.

The DPS Kickstarter does include the option of buying a pair of DPS skis with Phantom already applied.  Clearly could have just put the treatment on DPS skis, but probably wanted to see what the interest would be as a separate product.  One reason to do a Kickstarter is to reach the snowboarders who have no reason to know about DPS.

That inventor of Juice that uses the same hydrophobic concept is a British ski instructor who teaches in Austria.  Also an engineer.  Pretty sure it was available all of last season in Europe.  Also had users in New Zealand.  He had tests done at the Univ. of Bath.  He also has speed data.  What he doesn't have is the marketing know-how that DPS has.

http://looknowax.wixsite.com/juice/the-science

https://looknowax.com

tjf1967 wrote

I don't know if I will put it on good skis but on my CC/BC country ski I will give it a shot.  It works because it is from the upsidedown.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Phantom is only recommended for alpine skiing, certainly including back country given who buys DPS skis.  But not meant for nordic skis.

If it worked I'd be up for it. I rarely wax and hardly seem to care except one time, it ended my season. I was skiing some manky new snow and hit an especially wet spot. My left ski stopped dead and I tore my hamstring. It took me over an hour to make the two runs it took me to get back to the base area.

So a shop would sell this product why? To upset their regular annual revenue stream from those customers who come in at the start of every season for a tune and wax, and they maybe again mid-season for a wax?

Nope. If I owned a ski shop I would not sell this, and I'd find every reason to communicate to my regular customers that it probably ruins their skis somehow.

That's why IMO it would have to come from the manufacturers (or maybe bought direct).  I wonder how car dealer service centers are surviving.  New cars hardly need service anymore.

Harvey wrote

That's why IMO it would have to come from the manufacturers (or maybe bought direct).  I wonder how car dealer service centers are surviving.  New cars hardly need service anymore.

Obviously I come from a different perspective.  My father took his car to the dealer for all service.  My husband sets up for oil changes at the dealer by buying a package deal for multiple oil changes, with alignment.  Every time we go to the dealer, there are people in the waiting room.  Have to call several days in advance to get an appointment.  I found the same to be true at a dealer when I needed major work done in the Boston area.  We have a lifetime warranty on the 2007 minivan so I expect to make many more trips to a dealer for service.

But back to the topic . . . I found a first hand report.  There were some SKI Magazine testers who did comparisons at Loveland in October, just before the Kickstarter launch.  

https://www.skimag.com/gear/dps-phantom-test

"It’s a sunny October day in Colorado’s high country, and, while most of my friends are still savoring autumn by trail running and mountain biking, I’ve got my ski boots buckled and I’m ready to rip some turns at Loveland Ski Area. I have three pairs of DPS Cassiar F95 skis to test: one pair freshly waxed, one pair nude (both skis are wax-free), and a third pair with a special technology installed in the base, called Phantom, a lubricant that might replace ski wax in the near future. . . ."

Harvey wrote

That's why IMO it would have to come from the manufacturers (or maybe bought direct).  I wonder how car dealer service centers are surviving.  New cars hardly need service anymore.

Because almost nobody does anything on their own cars anymore, and cars are being designed so you can't even do the simplest things like replace a light bulb.

Dealers can charge $75 for a synthetic oil change and people will go and wait and pay it. I change my oil in 30 minutes if I'm being lazy, 15 if I want to hurry, and it costs me about $30 for a full synthetic change.

Do pads and rotors all around and you're looking at $600, for a job you can do for $250 and a couple hours of drinking beer.

There are people who go to the dealer for a light bulb change. Now to be fair some bulbs are a bitch to get at - I think by design. I did the drivers side low beam on my Outback recently and it involved removing the wheel, removing most of the fender liner, and reaching up to a blind area and replacing it by feel. I had to go on youtube to figure out how to get at the damn thing. Some people drop the bumper.

People choose to not do much for themselves anymore.  They'd rather sit in the waiting room staring at their phone than try and learn to do something that gets their hands grimy and requires a bit of effort.

But - back to this miracle solution. I don't think other manufacturers will offer it because they're going to take away from their dealer's revenue stream if they do.

If it proves to work well I could see myself trying it, but with mine and the kids skis to do maybe not on all of them. $600 can buy a few days of skiing instead...wax is cheap and easy to apply.