West Mountain Ski Center files bankruptcy

" the business had as many as 19 subsidiary limited liability companies, with seven or eight active when Montgomery came on board. Montgomery said this week he didn’t know why so many divisions were set up, but their presence raised red flags for investors."

Wow, just wow, Even little West Mountain was host to a really stupid amount of accounting trickery that may have bordered on fraud. 19 slcs? C'mon. Anybody watching Breaking Bad? Maybe money laundering? Especially since nothing was really spent on the area itself?

"Montgomery said he envisions a possible sub-contracting situation with the property, where a developer or developers with the right qualifications would be selected to take portions of the property and build condos, high-end homes or ski-in, ski-out properties."

Oh jeez, Oh, jeez. My palm just smacked my forehead. When all else fails, retreat to the fantasy of Aspen on your little nothing ski hill suddenly coming to life and making the owners rich. When, oh when, will that stupid stuff die? Ski in ski out at West. Madone.

As many as 19 LLCs......Their presence raised red flags for investors. Let me think, what other ski area development has an extremely complicated ownership structure with multiple LLCs??? And is highly speculative at a small remote area(presently defunct)   "When all else fails, retreat to the fantasy of Aspen at your little nothing ski hill suddenly coming to life and making the owners rich".  Condos, high end homes, ski in ski out properties.....  Benny, are you refering to West or did you get it mixed up with the ACR in Tupper?

Yeah, there's that, but, I point to the rise and fall of ASC (Killington, Canyons) as one great example of how somebody can use the accounting department as a tool of fraud to suck every dollar plus millions more out of a fantasy real estate and
"lifestyle amenities" concept, walk away with tens of millions in various bank accounts, and leave a garbage heap of bankruptcy behind them for others, hopefully, to clean up and make functional again. I'm looking at you, Les Otten, former mountain manager of Sunday River, who dog and ponied and power pointed his way to great wealth and part ownership of the Boston Red Sox using this method of crime.

Why do I have a weird feeling that they'd be more likely to get the ski in/ski out thing going at West than at Tupper or even Gore? Conceivably, you could live on West and work in Albany (bitch of an hour commute, but I know guys who drive from Utica/Poughkeepsie/etc. to Albany, so it's not like it can't be done). It just seems like there's more of a demand for property in Queensbury as opposed to North Creek or Tupper Lake. I mean, there's already a couple of houses on West already! I ski by them wondering if they enjoy all these people looking through their windows.

Got to agree with you on this MC.

Actually I'm totally confused.  I thought that Snowballs lived in a West Mtn slopeside development.  I thought once he said something about rolling out of bed at 10am and skiing down to the lift.

mattchuck2 wrote

Why do I have a weird feeling that they'd be more likely to get the ski in/ski out thing going at West than at Tupper or even Gore? Conceivably, you could live on West and work in Albany (bitch of an hour commute, but I know guys who drive from Utica/Poughkeepsie/etc. to Albany, so it's not like it can't be done). It just seems like there's more of a demand for property in Queensbury as opposed to North Creek or Tupper Lake. I mean, there's already a couple of houses on West already! I ski by them wondering if they enjoy all these people looking through their windows.

As a lifelong NY metro resident, I'm always a little amazed when some in the Albany and north of Albany area talk of difficult commutes. West Mt. to Albany is a cakewalk compared to most commutes down here. It's a straight shot on a mostly six lane interstate with barely any traffic, even in rush hour. I've breezed through Albany at 9am and 5pm many a time at 60mph. Try that on the NJ turnpike or 95 around Stamford, Ct., where I work now.
I used to hear some co workers talk about this when I worked in Saratoga Springs, and I just scratched my head. You guys don't know traffic.

That said, I think we're not considering the wife factor here. They want homes with yards and neighbors, not condos on the side of ski runs with snow guns blaring in the morning.

Benny Profane wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

Why do I have a weird feeling that they'd be more likely to get the ski in/ski out thing going at West than at Tupper or even Gore? Conceivably, you could live on West and work in Albany (bitch of an hour commute, but I know guys who drive from Utica/Poughkeepsie/etc. to Albany, so it's not like it can't be done). It just seems like there's more of a demand for property in Queensbury as opposed to North Creek or Tupper Lake. I mean, there's already a couple of houses on West already! I ski by them wondering if they enjoy all these people looking through their windows.

As a lifelong NY metro resident, I'm always a little amazed when some in the Albany and north of Albany area talk of difficult commutes. West Mt. to Albany is a cakewalk compared to most commutes down here. It's a straight shot on a mostly six lane interstate with barely any traffic, even in rush hour. I've breezed through Albany at 9am and 5pm many a time at 60mph. Try that on the NJ turnpike or 95 around Stamford, Ct., where I work now.
I used to hear some co workers talk about this when I worked in Saratoga Springs, and I just scratched my head. You guys don't know traffic.

That said, I think we're not considering the wife factor here. They want homes with yards and neighbors, not condos on the side of ski runs with snow guns blaring in the morning.

I don’t mean to seem all hero worshippy, but….you know everything.

mattchuck2 wrote

Why do I have a weird feeling that they'd be more likely to get the ski in/ski out thing going at West than at Tupper or even Gore? Conceivably, you could live on West and work in Albany (bitch of an hour commute, but I know guys who drive from Utica/Poughkeepsie/etc. to Albany, so it's not like it can't be done). It just seems like there's more of a demand for property in Queensbury as opposed to North Creek or Tupper Lake. I mean, there's already a couple of houses on West already! I ski by them wondering if they enjoy all these people looking through their windows.

I agree. There is also a suburban type housing development right across the street from West Mt., plus many others in the greater Glens Falls area. There is a much larger population and different type of residential environment in close proximity to West. Mt. then there is for Gore or Big Tupper.

mattchuck2 wrote

Why do I have a weird feeling that they'd be more likely to get the ski in/ski out thing going at West than at Tupper or even Gore? Conceivably, you could live on West and work in Albany (bitch of an hour commute, but I know guys who drive from Utica/Poughkeepsie/etc. to Albany, so it's not like it can't be done). It just seems like there's more of a demand for property in Queensbury as opposed to North Creek or Tupper Lake. I mean, there's already a couple of houses on West already! I ski by them wondering if they enjoy all these people looking through their windows.

Matt is correct. This would just be another option that would be similar to a lake community. Mt Creek has a large number of townhouses on the mountain and most of these townhomes are used full time rather than as vacation units. The potential buyers for West dwarf the potential buyers for Tupper.  If they don't bang people out on property taxes they could even market the area to the "active" retirement community. Queensbury has all the amenities of suburbia with the great access to the Park and big time skiing while West could offer decent skiing right out your front door.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

you know everything.

Excuse me, but, I just had to go bandage my forehead from banging it on my desk. Wait, I'm a little dizzy, but, I'll be OK.

Listen, dudes, ask yourself this. If, after the greatest RE bubble of all time, including a second home industry at the base of every ski hill that thought they could profit from it, and the pooping of said bubble, which is still in process, wouldn't you think that, if there was going to be ski in - ski out condos at West, they would already be there? Maybe the market simply doesn't exist? I mean, North Creek, with one of the best ski hills within 3-4 hours of NYC metro, can only support one older complex, wouldn't you think West Luxury Development For Year Round Family Entertainment LLC is dead in the water before the first construction crew shows up?

Ow, my head.

Benny Profane wrote

Excuse me, but, I just had to go bandage my forehead from banging it on my desk. Wait, I'm a little dizzy, but, I'll be OK.

Listen, dudes, ask yourself this. If, after the greatest RE bubble of all time, including a second home industry at the base of every ski hill that thought they could profit from it, and the pooping of said bubble, which is still in process, wouldn't you think that, if there was going to be ski in - ski out condos at West, they would already be there? Maybe the market simply doesn't exist? I mean, North Creek, with one of the best ski hills within 3-4 hours of NYC metro, can only support one older complex, wouldn't you think West Luxury Development For Year Round Family Entertainment LLC is dead in the water before the first construction crew shows up?

Ow, my head.

Gore housing problems are completely different issues (Park zoning, North Creek lack of vision, ORDA) that deserves a new thread. Gore is also a different market.

West is fully integrated into the suburbia of the Glens Falls region( population about 125,000). If they kept the housing prices on West comparable to the area  I think they would be able to sell to year round residents. If they think they are going for expensive and/or vacation home market then you are correct.

A ten mile drive from West includes everything a suburban resident wants or needs for a suburban lifestyle - schools, stores, hospital, recreation, easy access to the interstate (3 miles), and the Capital region with a semi-major airport 45 minutes down the Northway.

Benny, Your post 11:49am.  Ditto. Double Ditto for the Front Street Development(or lack thereof) at Gore and Triple Ditto for the ACR in Tupper Lake.

There are a few things to know about the Mont Luzerne development proposal.  First, what is proposed is 2,400 residences, clustered into “villages.”  A hotel, golf course and retail space are also part of the proposal.  Second, the development takes place on property that is in the Town of Luzerne, on the opposite side of the mountain from the ski area (i.e., on the west side of the mountain, the ski area is on the east side).  Third, ski in / ski out has never been a big part of the development proposal, although it might be possible if lifts / trails were extended down the west slope of the mountain.  What’s been proposed is a retirement or baby-boomer type of community that just happens to be next to a ski area, but not really integrated into the ski area.

The proposal dates back to the ‘80s, and has been scuttled and then revived several times since.  Until quite recently there was a link on West Mountain’s webpage that took you to some conceptual drawings and such, but that link is no longer active.  As you can imagine, the project has been quite controversial over the years, especially because of the huge scale of the development (it would double the number of residences in Luzerne).  Most recently (early 2012), the Town of Luzerne approved the zoning changes necessary for the development to move forward, but did so on condition that certain studies related to water supply be completed within 12 months.  The developers (Mike Brandt) asked for a 3-year extension due to (surpise) inadequate finances.  I don’t know whether the extension was granted, and if / how the recent bankruptcy affects those approvals.

So yes, while Matt is generally right about residential development being more viable in Queensbury than in Tupper Lake, this particular development proposal has some pretty shaky history.  Perhaps the new owners will tweak (or better yet, radically alter) the development proposal to reflect the type of ski in / ski out development that I suspect Matt (and probably most others on this forum) have in mind.

By the way, whoever cited the Glens Falls regional population at 125K, you've got to draw the circle pretty wide to come up with that number.  Glens Falls itself (the city) is well under 20K, and the number goes up to maybe 40-50K with Queensbury.  It's pretty rural beyond Queensbury.

Adk Jeff wrote

By the way, whoever cited the Glens Falls regional population at 125K, you've got to draw the circle pretty wide to come up with that number.  Glens Falls itself (the city) is well under 20K, and the number goes up to maybe 40-50K with Queensbury.  It's pretty rural beyond Queensbury.

I quoted the 125,000 number and it shows up on most sites if you google Glens Falls Metro Area. The counties include Warren and Washington.
Here is a link to the Federal Reserve site:http://www.newyorkfed.org/regional/profile_glensfalls.html
The Fed number is 129,000 for the Glens Falls Metro Area.

Here is a link to Forbes:http://www.forbes.com/places/ny/glens-falls/. They use 128,600.

x10003q wrote

I quoted the 125,000 number and it shows up on most sites if you google Glens Falls Metro Area. The counties include Warren and Washington.
Here is a link to the Federal Reserve site:http://www.newyorkfed.org/regional/profile_glensfalls.html
The Fed number is 129,000 for the Glens Falls Metro Area.

Here is a link to Forbes:http://www.forbes.com/places/ny/glens-falls/. They use 128,600.

X, your 125K is the entire population of Warren (66K as of 2011) plus Washington (63K as of 2011) counties.  I would call that a pretty wide circle when you are talking about West Mountain being "fully integrated into the suburbia of the Glens Falls region ( population about 125,000)."

Adk Jeff wrote

x10003q wrote

I quoted the 125,000 number and it shows up on most sites if you google Glens Falls Metro Area. The counties include Warren and Washington.
Here is a link to the Federal Reserve site:http://www.newyorkfed.org/regional/profile_glensfalls.html
The Fed number is 129,000 for the Glens Falls Metro Area.

Here is a link to Forbes:http://www.forbes.com/places/ny/glens-falls/. They use 128,600.

X, your 125K is the entire population of Warren (66K as of 2011) plus Washington (63K as of 2011) counties.  I would call that a pretty wide circle when you are talking about West Mountain being "fully integrated into the suburbia of the Glens Falls region ( population about 125,000)."

I am not exactly sure what is bothering you about my reference. I did not create the Glens Falls Metro Area. If you do not think this accepted statistical region is not valid, write to the Census Bureau.

West Mtn is in a  suburban area only about 5 miles from the hospital and the center of Glens Falls. How is West not fully integrated into the region? I am not talking about Gore Mtn which is also part of the GF Metro Area. I would not consider Gore to be in a suburban area.

There are very few ski areas the size and scope of West Mtn (zero in NY) that would support this type of lifestyle. Most ski areas this size and larger are not found  in suburban areas.

Adk Jeff wrote

What’s been proposed is a retirement or baby-boomer type of community that just happens to be next to a ski area, but not really integrated into the ski area.

Oh, well, that explains a lot. Some people think the mythical retired Boomer market will fill up all of the golf course and ski hill condos built over the years, and then some. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. The Boomers have no money, and a large number of them who have bought those second homes are and will be liquidating them for food money. They certainly won't be buying slopeside ski condos.

x10003q wrote

I am not exactly sure what is bothering you about my reference. I did not create the Glens Falls Metro Area. If you do not think this accepted statistical region is not valid, write to the Census Bureau.

West Mtn is in a  suburban area only about 5 miles from the hospital and the center of Glens Falls. How is West not fully integrated into the region? I am not talking about Gore Mtn which is also part of the GF Metro Area. I would not consider Gore to be in a suburban area.

There are very few ski areas the size and scope of West Mtn (zero in NY) that would support this type of lifestyle. Most ski areas this size and larger are not found  in suburban areas.

West's advantage comes from having the 40K Glens Falls/Queensbury population at its doorstep.  Let's not overstate things by implying it's a larger population.  The rest of the 125K in your statistical region is spread across a wide, rural area.

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Excuse me, but, I just had to go bandage my forehead from banging it on my desk. Wait, I'm a little dizzy, but, I'll be OK.

Listen, dudes, ask yourself this. If, after the greatest RE bubble of all time, including a second home industry at the base of every ski hill that thought they could profit from it, and the pooping of said bubble, which is still in process, wouldn't you think that, if there was going to be ski in - ski out condos at West, they would already be there? Maybe the market simply doesn't exist? I mean, North Creek, with one of the best ski hills within 3-4 hours of NYC metro, can only support one older complex, wouldn't you think West Luxury Development For Year Round Family Entertainment LLC is dead in the water before the first construction crew shows up?

Ow, my head.

Gore housing problems are completely different issues (Park zoning, North Creek lack of vision, ORDA) that deserves a new thread. Gore is also a different market.

West is fully integrated into the suburbia of the Glens Falls region( population about 125,000). If they kept the housing prices on West comparable to the area  I think they would be able to sell to year round residents. If they think they are going for expensive and/or vacation home market then you are correct.

A ten mile drive from West includes everything a suburban resident wants or needs for a suburban lifestyle - schools, stores, hospital, recreation, easy access to the interstate (3 miles), and the Capital region with a semi-major airport 45 minutes down the Northway.

But, why would they buy a condo if they live ten minutes away?

West should fix some of the small things first.  I skied the past two seasons there & wish mother nature had of provided more snow just to get to ski the whole mtn.  Does that mean they need more snowmaking maybe but I think the first floor bathrooms need to be maintained first. I can't remember if they had no soap, papertowels but I came away disappointed.  From then on I always just went upstairs.  I like the atmosphere & service better up there.  I do agree that the lifts seem old and dilapidated and the main trail down is so off camber and at times icey & skied off that it reminds me of spring skiing with one trail with kids learning to ski while others fly over jumps.  The backside was more enjoyable when covered with snow.  It seems viable to be a little better than a feeder hill but condos that would be a reach.  I think the Great Escape Lodge had a deal to ski with them while staying that seemed like an idea if in the area with kids do the indoor lodge & ski.  Guess it wasn't enough.  I wish them good luck & hope we can still ski there - the view from the top is nice!