What is Double Fall Line?

I have heard this term many times describing trails and I even know of some trails that have it.  What is the true definition of it?

The examples of double fall line trails that I can think of are below.  Please list any more that you know.

Hunter:  East Side Drive, Minya Konka, Wayout, Annapurna
Gore:  Pine Knot, Moxham
Windham:  World Cup (formerly Wedgie)

A trail that is drunk.  Not only sloping down, but to one side or the other.  Also known as annoying

pineknot yes , moxham no

Chris wrote

A trail that is drunk.  Not only sloping down, but to one side or the other.  Also known as annoying

Picture a big beach ball rolling down the trail from the top of the line you are about to ski. Does it go straight down or end up in the woods?

If it ends up below in the woods below, that is a double fall line.

More concretely: If you have ever skied a trail and tried to hug one side, and kept ending up on the other no matter what you did, that trail has a double fall line. This usually gives skiers more trouble than a singular one.

I don't think any of the Hunter trails have a double fall line -- those are all roads more than trails, and even if they were cut across the hill, they're super graded to compensate. So no, none of those are.

Hope that helps.

A trail where you fall more than once, for me, most trails are double fall line.

ml242 wrote

Picture a big beach ball rolling down the trail from the top of the line you are about to ski. Does it go straight down or end up in the woods?

If it ends up below in the woods below, that is a double fall line.
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ML gave you the classic example with a ball rolling down a ski slope.  In other words, a double fall line trail not only slopes downhill...but also side to side.  I like double fall line trails as they add variety and challenge.

I would say this is a misnomer. There is only one fall line ever.

Double falls are "Lovely", I search them out.   Especially when you cannot find enough single fall line steep where you are skiing.  

I play the double as much as I can.     Assume fall line runs away (beach ball) to skier's right.  

Right turns are steeper and drop off, especially big mogul runs.   Then a quick left turn sends you uphill, slowing you down, repeat.    

Marcski wrote

ml242 wrote

Picture a big beach ball rolling down the trail from the top of the line you are about to ski. Does it go straight down or end up in the woods?

If it ends up below in the woods below, that is a double fall line.
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ML gave you the classic example with a ball rolling down a ski slope.  In other words, a double fall line trail not only slopes downhill...but also side to side.  I like double fall line trails as they add variety and challenge.

Do you like skiing Hunter?  They have not one, not two, not three, but FOUR double fall line trails (East Side Drive, Minya Konka, Wayout, and Annapurna).

This should be good.

snoloco wrote

Do you like skiing Hunter?  They have not one, not two, not three, but FOUR double fall line trails (East Side Drive, Minya Konka, Wayout, and Annapurna).

If you start skiing any of those on one side, do you find yourself pushed to the other side? I don't. The trails are graded like roads at Hunter, they may cut across the hill but the "double fall line" is negligable due to the flattening. I'm trying to picture myself skiing the trails and there isn't one instance where you make a turn left and slow down (kind of uphill feeling) and then back to the right and end up almost in the woods (or vice versa).

That was a nice explanation that got posted.

I love Hunter but you're way more likely to see what your asking about on a more oldschool hill that didn't blast and grade the trails. Tell your dad to take you to Sugarbush and try Steins Run or Middle Earth. Can't really think of any trails in the Catskills that exemplify this right now. Usually all the tracks are on one side and none on the other since most skiers can't hang in that fall line.

If you don't get it then I guess you won't until it's really apparent.

With the exception of perhaps Anapurna, I have to agree with ML again on this one.  And, to answer your question, I do enjoy skiing Hunter but not nearly as much as Plattekill.

ML, have you skied East Side Drive or Minya Konka recently?  When I took a groomer ride at Hunter last January we groomed Minya Konka.  The driver told me that they had to pile more snow up on the skier's right side of Minya Konka and East Side Drive to mitigate the double fall line.  If I try to hug the skier's left side, I always end up on the skier's right side when I ski these trails.  I also have to carve out turns from right to left while I just slide from left to right effortlessly.

Ski at Hunter more often and you will know that these trails are definitely double fall line.  I would think that every regular Hunter season passholder would tell you that those trails are double fall line.  Wayout is as well, but only on a section lower down.  That is why those trails are rated black, even though their pitch is more in line with a blue.  

Even the small Tuxedo Ridge has a double fall line trail and that is Tiger West.  

Last post for the eve -

I think that they do a great job with the grooming and that's one good reason why i really don't notice, but if you're feeling the effect than there is a double fall line.

Also, when you're a really strong skier the effects are mitigated. The weaker you are the more you notice it on easier terrain, at the top level you'd only notice it in really hairy situations because you point it where you want.

As far as days at Hunter, I have been skiing there for quite awhile and am pretty familiar with the terrain. :)

If you've skied an old school natural trail with an extreme double fall line, then obviously on Hunter's trails you wouldn't see it as much.  I can notice because I ski those trails a ton.  I can easily handle them, but I do notice that there is a double fall line on them.  Hunter has so much snowmaking capacity that they try to level out the double fall line on their trails.  Early/late season it is even more obvious as there is less snow.

In this picture of Tiger West at Tuxedo Ridge, you can see the double fall line if you look closely.

On Chatiemac from the junction of Hawkeye to the entrance of Chatiemac Glades is double fall line

Cloudspin is a double fall line...so is the top of Upper Mac

a little different than Tiger West.