What would you rather

Brownski wrote

Keep in mind it’s been twenty years so a lot of my experience is obsolete now. In Tahoe, I was a full time liftie. We saw snowmakers moved over starting in January but in VT (where I worked in snowmaking) it happened later in the season. Mid February to early March. Managers and supervisors stuck around the longest. Then if they had to fire up the guns again, they just clawed people back from the other departments. I got pulled back to snowmaking twice. Regarding where the guns go, if it’s a trail that’s gonna need more work, the hoses get drained and coiled and stashed in the trees.  A lot of the time, they didn’t make it to the trees and just sat on top of the plumbing. If there was a reasonable expectation that they wouldn’t be needed again, they were needed elsewhere or if they accidentally got frozen they were dragged down to the barn to get thawed and rolled up.

Always good to get first hand info.  I like history.  Only started reading and watching videos about snowmaking a few years ago.  From what I saw at Wildcat last Dec, things haven't changed that much when it comes to dealing with portable guns on sleds.

The new huge fan guns at Massanutten are on wheels are obviously much easier to move around.  They use them mostly around the base area once the core trails are deep enough.  Also have a few pole mounted fan guns at key intersections that can really build up a fresh base after a warm spell.  It's only been in recent years that the snow guns were used even in March on the lower mountain to keep the season going for another week or two if there was a long enough cold spell.  Automation on the stick guns meant fewer staff were needed.

The snowmakers in the northeast may have to learn some of the approaches to snowmaking that have become standard practice in the southeast and Mid-Atlantic in the last decade or so.  Although my sense is that snowmakers in southern New England have been making adjustments for a while.

When I worked at Killington there were only one or two fan guns there. I think they were demos rather then Killington property. They were set up at the bottom of snowshed and none of the guys wanted anything to do with it. I remember the manufacturer’s rep. showed up in the control room a couple mornings, asking how it was performing and I would just shrug, “I don’t think anybody ran it last night. Maybe the day shift turned it on...”  I don’t think it ever ran except when the rep. was on site.

Brownski wrote

When I worked at Killington there were only one or two fan guns there. I think they were demos rather then Killington property. They were set up at the bottom of snowshed and none of the guys wanted anything to do with it. I remember the manufacturer’s rep. showed up in the control room a couple mornings, asking how it was performing and I would just shrug, “I don’t think anybody ran it last night. Maybe the day shift turned it on...”  I don’t think it ever ran except when the rep. was on site.

Not too surprising.  Killington was one of the first to do snowmaking on a large scale.  I remember reading an article in the Killington magazine about the old snow guns that are still used to prep for the world cup because they handle relatively warm temperatures better than current technology.  I get the impression they get put away once Superstar is prepped so that they'll last as long as possible.

Would you say K'ton prioritized snowmaking over lifts?

This video from 2017 about the rented air compressors is one I found when starting to explore snowmaking. (Don't remember how to embed.)

https://youtu.be/TYzmPuzOQdU

I don’t think they put them away completely because I still seem them around every time I’m up there. The extra air and the K guns are definitely Advantages for warmer weather snowmaking though. The guy in that video towards the end in the glasses and baseball hat is named Dave Lacombe. He’s the real backbone of the snowmaking there but Jeff Temple (the guy with no hair doing the talking) and a ton of the supervisors and managers who work under Dave have been there since long before my short stint and are still up there. They’re the real key. They just know how to do it better then anybody else. Here’s an article about Dave I saw last year
http://mountaintimes.info/meet-dave-lacombe-snowsurface-manager/

I guess you could say that they prioritize snowmaking over other investments, considering how long they waited to replace the Killington base lodge and some of the lifts are really old (especially over at Pico). On the other hand they invest in maintenance and work their asses off to keep everything up to date and running so you can’t really criticize the operations side either in my opinion. Seems to work pretty good if you ask me.

Brownski wrote

I don’t think they put them away completely because I still seem them around every time I’m up there. The extra air and the K guns are definitely Advantages for warmer weather snowmaking though. The guy in that video towards the end in the glasses and baseball hat is named Dave Lacombe. He’s the real backbone of the snowmaking there but Jeff Temple (the guy with no hair doing the talking) and a ton of the supervisors and managers who work under Dave have been there since long before my short stint and are still up there. They’re the real key. They just know how to do it better then anybody else. Here’s an article about Dave I saw last year
http://mountaintimes.info/meet-dave-lacombe-snowsurface-manager/

Good read.  Thanks!

Found my notes about the snow guns at Kton that help get SuperStar ready for the World Cup.  Called K-3000 and invented at Kton in the 1980s.

Brownski wrote

I guess you could say that they prioritize snowmaking over other investments, considering how long they waited to replace the Killington base lodge and some of the lifts are really old (especially over at Pico). On the other hand they invest in maintenance and work their asses off to keep everything up to date and running so you can’t really criticize the operations side either in my opinion. Seems to work pretty good if you ask me.

Now that I think about it, probably Massanutten also put money into snowmaking before replacing the original lifts.  By the time I started skiing there in 2004, there were plenty of stick guns on the core trails.  The original long double from the base had already been replaced by a fixed-grip quad.  The remaining old lifts didn't get shut down for maintenance issues much that I remember.  Those two lifts weren't replaced until 2009, 2010 although the long-term plan was written up by 2005.  Building out the waterpark and paying down the construction loan took priority in 2002-07.  As a 4-season timeshare resort, having an indoor/outdoor waterpark was going to bring in far more guests than better chairlifts.  Other projects like building the new ski school building (and locker room for instructors) were then delayed by the 2008 recession.

Seems that Bogus Basin in Idaho had put money into detachable quads before figuring out that surface water could work for snowmaking.  A few poor snow seasons almost put them out of business.

Bogus is unusual because it's always been non-profit but is pretty big, even more skiable terrain than Bridger.  It serves Boise, which is growing fast.  Bogus has operated for over 75 years, has 2600 acres, and 1800 ft vertical.  After another detachable quad is installed at the base for 2019-20, there will be four high speed quads.

The new snowmaking infrastructure was completed in 2018.  The goal for the $6.3 million project was to assure that a few frontside trails are open top-to-bottom before the Christmas holiday period.  Getting open by Thanksgiving would be a bonus.  The project included building a 13 million gallon holding pond, that is filled based on water rights negotiated for a creek that doesn't run towards Boise.  They bought 24 fan guns on wheels that cost $45K a piece.  What's impressive is that the money for Phase 1 was raised in less than a year, so no money was borrowed.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/sep/04/new-era-for-nonprofit-bogus-basin-includes-snowmak/
https://www.idahostatesman.com/outdoors/playing-outdoors/article217672075.html

It's pretty clear reading the local articles that the folks in Boise don't know much about snowmaking.  A bit ironic because because the Holding family emphasized snowmaking for Sun Valley when they took it over in the late 1970s.  But the regulars at Sun Valley and those at Bogus Basin probably don't cross paths that often.  Bogus is to Boise what West Mountain is to Albany, just on a different scale because the mountains out west are so much bigger and the cities are so much smaller.

Always snow.  You can ski without lifts.

99% of the time I'll take snowmaking over lifts. The other 1% is stuff like Magic's Black Lift getting replaced, i.e. the lift is from the 1960s and isn't available most of the time anyway.