What would you rather

Have new lifts or  your mountain covered with snow making.
It's my preference to make the darn snow.  Come on it's not rocket science. West mountain is dumb putting a new lift in. Until they can cover that place wall to wall in a month they should just keep building out  the snowmaking. And so should whiteface and Gore.

Agree ...  This really turned me off with Greek, never understood why they put that lift in as opposed to snow making. Geez any skier will take good conditions over a faster lift any day. As a matter of fact I now ski somewhere else with slow lifts but much much better snow making

tjf1967 wrote

Have new lifts or  your mountain covered with snow making.
It's my preference to make the darn snow.  Come on it's not rocket science. West mountain is dumb putting a new lift in. Until they can cover that place wall to wall in a month they should just keep building out  the snowmaking. And so should whiteface and Gore.

Per usual, it depends.    How old was the lift replaced at West?  Is the new lift brand new or used?  Does it break down at all?  I've only recently discovered the existence of West and have never been there.

The small mountain I know best is Massanutten, which was founded in 1971, about 75 acres, 100% snowmaking.  They started a multi-year improvement process by replacing two original lifts, vintage 1970s.  There was a slow double used by beginners from the base, and an old triple that serves the primary blue terrain with a mid-station for intermediates while advanced skiers/boarders can ride to the top.  The new beginner lift was a quad with conveyor loading.  It's a short lift that can also be used by inter/adv folks to get to the upper mountain.  Old triple stayed a triple but all new towers and less maintenance hassles.  Updating snowmaking infrastructure started at the same time but will continue as needed.  Lots more giant fan guns in the last few years, both fixed and portable.  Building a new building for the ski school was a big deal that also meant the lodge (only one) could be renovated.  Final major project was building a 2-mile pipeline from a second water source.  I figure the total price tag is well over $25 million even without the pipeline and the process has taken 10-15 years.  I know the initial plan was drawn up in 2005.  Massanutten is a major 4-season timeshare resort so can find funding for major capital improvements like an indoor/outdoor waterpark or replacing lifts.  But it still can't do everything at once.

scrundy wrote

Agree ...  This really turned me off with Greek, never understood why they put that lift in as opposed to snow making. Geez any skier will take good conditions over a faster lift any day. As a matter of fact I now ski somewhere else with slow lifts but much much better snow making

Greek had to put the new lift in. It had been promised for 3 years before it was ever installed.

That said I completely agree with you and TJ that it's all about the POW. Heck, I'd rather ride T-bars and have the snow!!!

Snowmaking first every time.

I like it when they cut new trails and leave them there for years without snowmaking, completely killing any chance of getting the mountain 100% open by Christmas.

I’d prefer to see fewer of both lifts and snowmaking.

scrundy wrote

Agree ...  This really turned me off with Greek, never understood why they put that lift in as opposed to snow making. Geez any skier will take good conditions over a faster lift any day. As a matter of fact I now ski somewhere else with slow lifts but much much better snow making

It's not faster.

campgottagopee wrote

That said I completely agree with you and TJ that it's all about the POW. Heck, I'd rather ride T-bars and have the snow!!!

The T bars were awesome.  I wish they were still there!

I would venture to guess if they put all that money into snowmaking they would get more customers.  People want a good skiing experience.  It will bring them back a lot more than a fancy bathroom in a lodge.  
Blow it groom it get out of the way.  

Snow making is at the top of the list, but if the lift is old and parts have to be custom made for it which can mean long down time periods, what good does it do to have trails covered in snow if you can't ride the lift up to them?

Mi Skier wrote

Snow making is at the top of the list, but if the lift is old and parts have to be custom made for it which can mean long down time periods, what good does it do to have trails covered in snow if you can't ride the lift up to them?

That’s true. There are exceptions of course. Also, I have a pretty strong aversion to putting permanent tower guns and fans all over the place. I much prefer old fashioned ground guns that can disappear when not in use.

tjf1967 wrote

I would venture to guess if they put all that money into snowmaking they would get more customers.  People want a good skiing experience.  It will bring them back a lot more than a fancy bathroom in a lodge.  
Blow it groom it get out of the way.

West Mountain is adding 100 stick guns and 60 snow fan guns.  Plus two new pumps.  Have just over 100 acres to cover.  That seems like a pretty good chunk of money for snowmaking infrastructure.  Mountain High added 35 snow guns last season and the price tag was $250K.  I gather all the snow guns at West used to be portable.  What I don't see is any mention of whether any of the new guns are automated.

I take it you don't take kids skiing.

Joneski73 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

That said I completely agree with you and TJ that it's all about the POW. Heck, I'd rather ride T-bars and have the snow!!!

The T bars were awesome.  I wish they were still there!

Was pretty fun to ride a brand new T-bar on the summit at Waterville Valley last March.  Sensibly decided to replace a chairlift that was often on wind hold.  WV also made the decision to move a fixed-grip triple instead of spending a lot more money on a new detachable quad for the new terrain on Green Mountain.

WV has good snowmaking infrastructure.  But I don't know whether snowmaking was improved before or after the main lift became a high speed detachable.  For midweek skiing at a small mountain, much more fun doing laps when riding a fast lift.  Jiminy Peak's high speed lift is good for skiing since it accesses 80% of the terrain.  Also good for summer tourists.  Jiminy has had good snowmaking for a long time.

Brownski wrote

That’s true. There are exceptions of course. Also, I have a pretty strong aversion to putting permanent tower guns and fans all over the place. I much prefer old fashioned ground guns that can disappear when not in use.

The new stick guns at Waterville Valley were painted black to blend in more with the trees just behind them.  Have to look closely to noticed them even when riding the lift.

Have you ever watched a crew move a ground gun?

No, but I would venture to guess good snow is more important to them than good lifts.  They just don't know yet.

And old lifts and broken lifts are different things.  We are still flying planes commercially built 30 years ago.  They don't fall out of the sky.  If mountains don't maintain lifts they will break whether they are new or old.  Case in point the W chair at whiteface.  

marznc wrote

Have you ever watched a crew move a ground gun?

Of course. I have done it myself. When I was a snow maker, I spent most of my time at the bottom of the hill, keeping the water and air pressure balanced but I got to work on the hill enough to know what it is like.

tjf1967 wrote

No, but I would venture to guess good snow is more important to them than good lifts.  They just don't know yet.

To a kid who is a beginner or intermediate, pretty much any snow is good snow.  The whining happens on the lift.  Unless they are so tired that they fall asleep on a long ride.  What matters from a business standpoint is what makes parents happier.

I'll have a better sense of my opinion after I ski Sugar in the NC mountains again.  Sugar has always had pretty good snowmaking.  However, the main lift to the top was a slow double that took 12 min to ride up and at most 3 min to ski down even when I was an intermediate who had to stop once or twice on the way down.  The few seasons I skied in NC with my daughter when she was learning, I opted to drive a few miles farther to Beech to avoid that lift.  Since then Sugar replaced the double with a detachable quad and cut the ride time in half.  In fact, it's technically a chondola although they only bought one gondola car and I think think it's used during the winter.

Brownski wrote

marznc wrote

Have you ever watched a crew move a ground gun?

Of course. I have done it myself. When I was a snow maker, I spent most of my time at the bottom of the hill, keeping the water and air pressure balanced but I got to work on the hill enough to know what it is like.

Oh good . . . now I can ask questions about snowmaking.

Once the base is decent, are portable guns usually moved to storage for the rest of the season?  Or left close by for the inevitable thaw when resurfacing will be needed.  Are there any snowmaking crew members who don't work the entire season?

I know what happens in the Mid-Atlantic and southeast but would guess it might be a little different farther north.  I know that snowmakers in the Rockies work more or less Oct-Dec or Nov-Jan and then either go home (New Zealand) or switch to other jobs on the mountain.

Keep in mind it’s been twenty years so a lot of my experience is obsolete now. In Tahoe, I was a full time liftie. We saw snowmakers moved over starting in January but in VT (where I worked in snowmaking) it happened later in the season. Mid February to early March. Managers and supervisors stuck around the longest. Then if they had to fire up the guns again, they just clawed people back from the other departments. I got pulled back to snowmaking twice. Regarding where the guns go, if it’s a trail that’s gonna need more work, the hoses get drained and coiled and stashed in the trees.  A lot of the time, they didn’t make it to the trees and just sat on top of the plumbing. If there was a reasonable expectation that they wouldn’t be needed again, they were needed elsewhere or if they accidentally got frozen they were dragged down to the barn to get thawed and rolled up.