Whiteface - Lookout Mountain...estimated opening?

Figured I'd dig this up.

I'm beginning to get very worried that Lookout will be left to rot again this year.  Coach said that they are going to blow Mac before going up there, but the report doesn't show snowmaking on any currently closed terrain.  Have they given up on terrain expansion already?

While I thought it was a poor decision, it was understandable why that side didn't open last year, considering how awful it was.  However, this year has been about average, and there is still no signs of anything happening with it.

I'm guessing that since few people complained about it not opening last year that management now thinks all that terrain is non-essential, and they can just open it when they feel like it in good snow years.  No other mountain in the east has an entire lift section that's considered "optional" to open in a given year.  MLK weekend and President's weekend are going to be shit shows without that area open.  Won't really be any way to avoid crowds.

I've made multiple comments on their fb page saying asking when it will open, but no response.  Sent an email to management last night asking the same thing, and no response.

I know I've said this same thing before and will likely get flamed for posting this, but I just wanted to put it up here and see if anyone knows what the plan is.

Gore also pretty slow to open terrain (blowing only on Lower Darby, Echo, and Wood In yesterday). Contrasted with what Killington was doing on Thursday and Friday (Guns blasting Superstar, Skylark, Bittersweet, Highline, Bear Mountain, and a bunch of high-traffic areas on other trails), I'm starting to wonder if ORDA is in money saving mode this year, trying not to spend too much on power to recover financially from last year.

I hate to agree with snoloco, because I usually don't like when people complain about conditions, but I'm probably not going to buy a Gore/WF pass next year. Other mountains (both bigger and smaller) just do a better job of delivering a better skiing experience.

If climate scientists are right you are going to have to get used to this.

Don't cut it if you can't cover it.

Shouldn't have built that section if they were going to half ass the snowmaking and not be serious about opening it.

At this point, they need to commit to opening it by at least MLK Weekend, or just take the whole damn thing off the map.  Otherwise it only exists as a scam to up their skiable acreage when they don't have any plans to actually open it.

I think Sno needs to calm down a little and let mother nature help out a bit. Certainly Whiteface had some nice early season snow totals, but they seem to be misleading given that they have been counting well before the season started and we had some significant rain events in between.

To use the 2006/2007 season as an example, right now Whiteface is in much better shape than they were that year. Skyward didnt open until the very end of January (in fact it might have been early february). The whole mountain was in rough shape. But that final week of January mother nature calmed down, temperatures fell and significant snow events began occurring on an almost weekly basis. It ended up being one of the best seasons on record and they ran until late April.

Considering they were blowing on Lookout last year right up tip before Presidents weekend I suspect they were still going to shoot for it this year. Temps have been far more consistent, theres a better base already and hopefully some systems will roll through.

I think you should balance out that engineering brain with some courses on human behavior Sno.

Did you know that we are the first human civilization that actually lives amongst our own ruins? It may be that we are hard wired to to not really think about long term consequences bud. Historically speaking we make the same mistakes over and over again.

But beyond that, we can't always get what we want.

snoloco wrote

Otherwise it only exists as a scam to up their skiable acreage when they don't have any plans to actually open it.

I disagree... I remember back in the day (circa mid 80's) when Sunbrook at Mt Snow was "all-natural."  The pod rarely opened (South Facing, All Natural... go figure), but it was always a treat when it did.  At that time, there was 2 ways down with only 1 way out via the Bear Trap lift, so you couldn't lap it.  Due to its effective design, it always felt more remote (if you could say that for a mountain like Mount Snow).  Sunbrook used to be something special... it looks like they've homogenized it since I was last there.  

IMO: It's works both ways ... a convergence of supply & demand coupled with quantity vs quality if you will.  Limit the supply, and people appreciate it more (e.g. a higher quality experience).  Call it an inverse marketing strategy which creates a vibe of exclusivity for those who are lucky enough to experience it.  Not sure if this what the guys at Whiteface were thinking, but from a marketing perspective, it seems like a smart play to me.

Evantful, They blew some snow on Wilmington last year, then decided to leave the whole thing to rot.  I'm guessing that they'll be overly cautious in subsequent years because of that.  Lookout didn't exist in 06-07, and if it did, I'm guessing it would never have opened that year.  Oh well, no powder on Hoyt's or in SVG.

Nepa, I think it's completely moronic to do hard advertising of new terrain (like they did), then do a bait-n-switch and just not open it.  If you're using new terrain to bring people in, then don't open it when they come, they're gonna be pissed.  Think of how expensive that expansion was, and how much of a waste it is if it's not consistently open.

I'm locked in on skiing Whiteface for the next 4 years due to location, but if I had a choice where I skied, I wouldn't be buying another pass there if they didn't open Lookout an entire season that wasn't like last year.

Just checked the weather forecast and there's another fucking r*in event on Wednesday and Thursday.  Guess I can forget about any chance of Lookout opening this year.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I have major issues with my glasses freezing up, so I can't ski on trails where snowmaking is taking place, so it pisses me off even more than they're wasting snowmaking on open terrain when there's still a lift that needs to open.  Resurface at night if you must.   Blow only on closed terrain during the day.

snoloco wrote

Nepa, I think it's completely moronic to do hard advertising of new terrain (like they did), then do a bait-n-switch and just not open it.  If you're using new terrain to bring people in, then don't open it when they come, they're gonna be pissed.  Think of how expensive that expansion was, and how much of a waste it is if it's not consistently open.

Calling it "New" is a bit of a misnomer... correct me if I'm wrong, but Lookout has been on the map since 2008.  

Calling terrain that's been on the map for 8 years "New" is like calling a spoiled 18 year old who doesn't "work to ski" a crybaby.  Technically, you're an adult, but to me you sound like a little crybaby.


Make due with what you have.  Enjoy it while you can.  Quit crying.  Most young adults are not nearly as lucky as you.

I understand what you're saying about the capital investment. I don't disagree that re-develpoping that area could have been a mistake.  At this point, the bean counters call it "sunk cost." (From a Taxpayer perspective it's probably looked at more like a pork-barrel project, from an environmentalist perspective, I would think it's a disaster)  The optimist in me assumes most mountain management teams do the best they can when they are able.  With the economics of the industry and the consequences of climate change, there may only be a couple of good days per season over in that zone... those good days could attract a niche crowd.  If you're going to force it to open with low quality crap... why bother?

Edit: Look up "sunk cost" in an accounting text book... it will help you understand my marketing angle.

I'm guessing that as operating coats rise and sales go down with a warming world and unpredictable weather patterns ski areas will be forced to close or turn their backs on all kinds of pods like Lookout. Some will close completely.

It's a good thing you aren't interested in back country skiing Sno, your attitude would likely get you killed.

I know Lookout didn't exist then, because I was skiing there 4 days a week. I think you clearly missed the point of my post, that being its still January 8th and a lot can change rather dramatically due to the weather, with 2017 already in a much better place than 2007 was. In 06/07 as of January 8th it certainly wouldn't look like they could open Lookout given Skyward wasn't even open yet, BUT in less than 3 weeks times things changed with the year ending up being one of their snowiest in the last 2 decades.

You are saying the sky is falling based on one year, probably in the top 3 worst years since the 1950's, as a data point when there are plenty of years that started far dire than this one to counter your thoughts.

Nepa:  So if it's not a powder day it isn't even worth opening?  I'd have no ski days this year if I took that attitude.  I actually like to have some variety in what terrain I ski, and be able to get on all aspects of a mountain every year.  You and RA (the climate change fearmongerers) make this a whole lot better.

I don't like to call any section of a ski area the "main mountain".  I view all terrain as equal. Lookout is part of Whiteface, that they advertise I can ski.  I assume that means they're going to blow snow in a timely manner so I can ride the lift and ski the terrain.  It shouldn't be on the map if they aren't going to open it.  My guess is management took advantage of last year being terrible to lower people's standards so they can open a fraction of their terrain I'm subsequent years and avoid pissing everyone off.  That doesn't fly with me, and I know what's actually going on.

snoloco wrote

Nepa:  So if it's not a powder day it isn't even worth opening?  I'd have no ski days this year if I took that attitude.  I actually like to have some variety in what terrain I ski, and be able to get on all aspects of a mountain every year.  You and RA (the climate change fearmongerers) make this a whole lot better.

Climate change fear mongerer's? Really?

It's science and if you re-read my last post I clearly say "if the climate scientist are correct", that's far from fear-mongering buddy, that's reality. Get used to it.

In 2006 when I spent the winter in Telluride I remember bragging to a coworker who happened to be a female and a guide in Alaska as well as Silverton for skiing that I was super excited about my objectives/lines I was eager to ski around the Telluride area. She sat quietly not showing much emotion and was obviously not impressed with my attitude and boasting about ticking off a checklist of skiing goals. I was excited and eager but she also saw how impatient I was. Once I was done she told me "the San Juans are either going to teach you patience or they are going to kill you." Two weeks later I was caught in an avalanche that throttled me to the core and I was lucky to survive.

Get a grip kid and learn a little about patience.

I agree on a lot of things you say but your delivery and demands are often without understanding of a lot of other factors within ski area operations and instead of trying to understand those factors it's about you and what you want. Sorry dude but you sound kind of like a spoiled little shit sometimes.

Y'all have valid points. Bottom line will be how much it is open over the coming years. Like the Ski Bowl at Gore, the Look-out pod is leaning towards being closed far more than it is open. If this continues and becomes the well-established norm then Sno is spot on, sorry to say.

Remember all the lamenting when hoyt's had no SM ? Now, it doesn't matter cause the pod's seldom open anywho. Years of this would equal a bust.

The fact that I expect a lift to open in a given season instead of rattling in the wind is a perfectly reasonable expectation, and you think I'm spoiled because of it?!  Ideally, I'd like to see all lifts open by Christmas, but they've gotta at least open by mid January before a ski area can work on that.

There's a huge difference between going into an  unstable slide before there's enough snow to ski it and expecting snowmaking terrain at one of the top rated ski areas in the east to open within a reasonable period of time.  I don't know everything about ski resort operations, but I do know that the #2 rated ski area in the eastern US should not leave an entire section of the mountain to rot.  I consider WF the best skiing in the east for expert skiers hands down, but for that to be true, Lookout has to be open.  While there is plenty of expert terrain of the Summit and LWF lifts, Hoyt's, LBO, and SVG especially are incredibly unique terrain and add so much to the experience.

There is a fatal flaw in the Lookout section that causes management to shun it.  The only way groomers can get up there is via Wilmington Trail.  They can go down Hoyt's or use a winch, but they need to get to the top to attach the cable.  I don't think Wilmington Trail itself should be a high priority at all.  Takes a ton of work to cover it.  However, the other terrain is much easier to cover.  If they opened it with Hoyt's first, then they could open Wilmington in stages, first to LBO, then to the base.  Can't do that now, so Wilmington needs to be moved up in terms of priority to open the lift.

Increasing the size of the mountain with out increasing the capacity to make snow is showing its shortcomings.

tjf1967 wrote

Increasing the size of the mountain with out increasing the capacity to make snow is showing its shortcomings.

Agreed 100%

Gore made the same mistake.  Politicians don't seem to realize that terrain expansion means nothing without snowmaking upgrades.

Well I think we can all agree on expansions not being planned properly in conjunction with resources and climate shift. Things are changing but being that things are now what they are, adaptions will have to be made. Reality, not fear-mongering.

If all ski areas are going to suffer, then why can I count the number of snowmaking trails not touched yet at Killington on one hand?