Woman drowned during Hudson River rafting trip

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Woman drowned during Hudson River rafting trip

Adk Jeff
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Adk Jeff
More information on the incident from the Adirondack Almanack, including a link to the State Police press release.  The guide was allegedly intoxicated.  What a terrible, preventable tragedy.
Rafting guide arrested in drowning
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

ml242
This post was updated on .
It's unbelievable that crap like that can happen. You would have to be drunk to allow this to happen right? I'm not super familiar with the terrain, but the water is pretty low and slow right now there, right? What a terrible event, and I feel awful for the couple. I want to hope that these charges are unwarranted, that he was sober and that they were all wearing life jackets but losing a client..... wow, unforgivable.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

campgottagopee
ml242 wrote
It's unbelievable that crap like that can happen. You would have to be drunk to allow this to happen right? I'm not super familiar with the terrain, but the water is pretty low and slow right now there, right? What a terrible event, and I feel awful for the couple. I want to hope that these charges are unwarranted, that he was sober and that they were all wearing life jackets but losing a closet..... wow, unforgivable.
that's what i hope too

how does crap like this happen
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

tBatt
I was gonna post about this last night, but held back.

I heard that it was a trip with one guide and two customers. The guide fell out, and then the customer (who drowned) fell out. The woman was in her 50s.

The Indian is dam released, so it's a similar flow as long as the water wasn't over the spillway. It can get really sketchy in there. Regardless, it's not THAT hard to keep everyone in the boat.

If this is the guide I'm thinking of, well, I can't say that I'm shocked that it was from his boat.

The article has been updated - woman was 53 from columbus, OH.

I think this is only the 6th death on the river since it was open for commercial rafting (circa 1985)

Terrible, terrible news. Positive thoughts for the friends and family.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Face4Me
I did that trip back in April. When I did my research for a rafting company, I have to say that what I found led me away from Hudson River Rafting company. There were several complaints and charges related to them in the past.

We went with another company and had a great trip.

The possibility that the guide was intoxicated is truly unbelievable.
It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Benny Profane
This post was updated on .
Holy jeebus! How is this guy still in business?? Let this be a lesson to all of you who think there should be no government regulations of small business.

Check this out:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g48283-d1537890-Reviews-Hudson_River_Rafting_Company-North_Creek_Lake_George_Region_New_York.html

edit: This would make a great scene in that movie and/or Russell Banks novel I was thinking of. Let's guess who would be casted as the guide. Off the top of my head, Bill Murray, of course.
funny like a clown
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

ml242
Holy Schnikes! Those first reviews are totally insane.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

tBatt
In reply to this post by Face4Me
Face4Me wrote
The possibility that the guide was intoxicated is truly unbelievable.
Honestly, as a guide, I don't find this hard to believe at all.

Earlier in the year, the DOT set up a check point at the put in to make sure all the outfitters were up to par with their trucks/buses/trailers. One of the smaller companies brought their trip down in a 15 passenger van with one boat, and the guide got a DWI and an open container ticket. This was at about 9:30am.

Some of the guides are HEAVY drinkers.

And, Benny, I was reading those reviews last night. One of the reviews commented on how they thought all the reviews were just from a peeved customer or two trying to mess with Cunningham. Then they booked the trip, and everything turned out to be totally true.

To be honest, the thing I was the most shocked about was that he was actually licensed. There have been MANY instances where he has gotten caught for having unlicensed guides. Again, if this is the guy I'm thinking of (and I'm 90% sure it is), I saw him getting busted by the DEC earlier in the year for not having a license.

He does have a couple really good guides. If Cunningham does get shut down from this (but, I feel like somehow he won't), I hope they're rep isn't tarnished because of who they worked for.


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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Harvey
Administrator
I didn't want to post it either.

The companies listed in the NYSB rafting guide... well let's just say we didn't just pick them out of a hat. I sat down one night with veteran guides in North Creek and listened to what they had to say.  That was a year before Mary Thill's story in Adirondack Life.

From what I understand, it's not that unusual for people to get tossed from the raft. I'd like to hear tBatt's take on what the guide is taught to do when that happens.
"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Benny Profane
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by tBatt
tBatt wrote
Earlier in the year, the DOT set up a check point at the put in to make sure all the outfitters were up to par with their trucks/buses/trailers. One of the smaller companies brought their trip down in a 15 passenger van with one boat, and the guide got a DWI and an open container ticket. This was at about 9:30am.

Wow. Just, wow. That is one screwed up culture up there. Hopefully, this arrest will purge it. I'm doubtful.

I used to live in Saratoga, and contemplated one of those trips a few times out of boredom. You know, bring along a few workmates and have fun. Thank the lord I didn't. I really can't swim too well. (btw, I did the whole length of the Grand Canyon)
funny like a clown
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Face4Me
In reply to this post by tBatt
tBatt wrote
Honestly, as a guide, I don't find this hard to believe at all.
I'm still amazed that someone would do that, and even more so, that the owner of a business, who will ultimately bear the (financial) responsibility for this, would not do a better job of screening its employees.
It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Benny Profane
Face4Me wrote
tBatt wrote
Honestly, as a guide, I don't find this hard to believe at all.
I'm still amazed that someone would do that, and even more so, that the owner of a business, who will ultimately bear the (financial) responsibility for this, would not do a better job of screening its employees.

Read the reviews from the link I posted. The owner of this business should be prosecuted right next to the guide. I really doubt this guide was an anomaly.
funny like a clown
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Goreskimom
RIP
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

tBatt
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Harvey
Harvey44 wrote
From what I understand, it's not that unusual for people to get tossed from the raft. I'd like to hear tBatt's take on what the guide is taught to do when that happens.
Not uncommon. Depends pretty equally on the paddler, guide, and level of the river has a huge part to do with it. The guide can generally choose a safer line and keep everyone in the boat, but that is pretty much up to the guide's assessment of the crew of what line to/not to hit.  

If you find yourself falling out, paddle, get down if it isn't too soon, grab the chicken line around the outside of the boat. The closer you stay to the boat, the faster you get back in. If you're within a few feet of the boat and you have your paddle in  your hand, you can extend the t-grip to someone in the boat and they'll pull you along the side and pull you in. Or conversely, someone in the boat can reach their paddle out to you. If you get a bit farther, guides have a bag with 70 feet of rope they'll throw at you. Grab onto that and you get dragged in.

If someone is out and getting far away, paddle the crew as hard as you can towards them. If they're upstream from you, spin the boat around and paddle against the current. If possible/necessary, catch an eddy so they can catch up.

Ideally, you'll have a few other boats around you. Safety in numbers kinda thing. When you're actually running the rapids, the boats of each wave should be right on top of each other. That way if someone falls out of the boat in front, and gets hung up on a rock or in a hydraulic, the boat is right behind them to pull them in. From what I understand, there were only 3 boats on the river. Each a different company. HRRC's boat was the last out, so it was solely up to that guide if anything was to go awry. Which it clearly did.

The safety talk is really important. Many people either aren't paying attention or just go back initial reactions rather than doing what they're told to do. Don't stand up in the river and try to get to the bottom of it so it spits you out. You always want to point the way to go/safety. If there is a strainer, sieve, or really sticky hole, you point away from it, to the clean line. If you go towards a strainer, swim away. If that's not possible, go into an offensive swim and pull up and over it. If it's a shallower rapid and people are bouncing their asses off the ground, they will almost always try to stand up. This is extremely dangerous and the safety talk stresses NOT to stand up in the river. If the person does stand up in the river and there is a foot entrapment, it's extremely hard to pull over and help the person, and requires more than 1 person to do a z-drag rescue. If a person gets stuck in a hydraulic, they always want to swim to the top. That just pulls you closer to the stronger current and pushes you back under again. In those situations, it up to the rafter to remember what to do since there isn't any communication with the guide when your underwater. No one knows whether the lady was stuck in a hydraulic, strainer, or there was a foot entrapment. There are a few strainers on the Indian that could snag someone. There are plenty of hydraulics that would keep you, and it's extremely shallow, so foot entrapment is always an option. I know the article said it was unclear whether or not the lady had a life jacket on, but I'm willing to bet she had both a life jacket and a helmet. I don't think I've ever seen a customer in a HRRC boat without a PFD or helmet. All three previous hazards are possible even with a PFD. And, of course, head trauma is still a possibility with a helmet on.

I probably lose a person from my boat maybe once every four trips. Some people will lose two people a trip, every trip. Some people (Swimmin' Jim!) will probably only lose one person a year. Like I said, depends pretty much equally on the guides and customers. (Ok, maybe a bit more weight on the guide).

I know it should be a surprise that he was "intoxicated", but I can't really say it was. If it were another company, or another guide, then I would be much more shocked. But what does "intoxicated" really mean? Media hype (especially when the the media is even putting it in quotes)? Was he blowing a .02 from partying the night before? Chances are, no, but it's still not something that has been set in stone.

The accident could have been truly just that, an accident, and there was nothing the guide could have done. However, the previously tarnished name of the company may have a big say in what his outcome is going to be. I wonder what the repercussions would have been if he wasn't "intoxicated". And, if that gets taken out of the picture, I wonder how much of Cunningham's previous fuckups are going to fall onto his guide.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Adk Jeff
In reply to this post by Benny Profane
Benny Profane wrote
Wow. Just, wow. That is one screwed up culture up there. Hopefully, this arrest will purge it. I'm doubtful.
Despite TBatt's example, I don't think there's a culture of drunkenness and incompetent guides.  I'm not a boater, but I've known many boaters, guides,and rafting co. managers for 20+ years, and I can't think of a single individual who isn't responsible, professional, safe.  The people I know, I would not hesitate to trust with my own life and safety.  I think rafting is essentially a safe and fun activity.  That said, there is obviously a problem with one outfitter.  It's a shame that outfitter and guide have given a black mark to all of the responsible boaters, guides and rafting companies.

My condolences to the victim's family and friends.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Benny Profane
Sorry, I meant the culture of that company. Poor choice of word. Still the other guys in the business up there should have eliminated this guy a long time ago, after reading those reviews. But, I guess that's why he was charged so quickly. Everybody knew. Too bad a poor tourist was sacrificed.
funny like a clown
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

tBatt
Adk Jeff wrote
Despite TBatt's example, I don't think there's a culture of drunkenness and incompetent guides.  I'm not a boater, but I've known many boaters, guides,and rafting co. managers for 20+ years, and I can't think of a single individual who isn't responsible, professional, safe.  The people I know, I would not hesitate to trust with my own life and safety.  I think rafting is essentially a safe and fun activity.  That said, there is obviously a problem with one outfitter.  It's a shame that outfitter and guide have given a black mark to all of the responsible boaters, guides and rafting companies.
Maybe I'm making us look bad with the specific example. I would definitely agree that most guides I'm friends with are responsible people and I wouldn't hesitate with my life in their hands. The drinking culture comes around after the day of rafting. Many of the guides hang around after the day of rafting and start drinking.

Benny Profane wrote
Sorry, I meant the culture of that company. Poor choice of word. Still the other guys in the business up there should have eliminated this guy a long time ago, after reading those reviews. But, I guess that's why he was charged so quickly. Everybody knew. Too bad a poor tourist was sacrificed.
I'm sure that companies have been trying to pinch him out for a while. It's difficult because I think he's the oldest running operation on the river right now. He has been sued tons of times. He just seems to lawyer his way out of everything.

Does anyone remember this story from last fall? Someone told me (who was one of the first people on the scene, but oddly enough he had "just stepped outside" when his girlfriend saw the boat go over the falls) that it was an HRRC life jacket that went with the kayak. I think that was was someone's terrible attempt to have him ran out of town.
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

Spongeworthy
DEC and/or the Attorney General must do something about this. The efforts of the local DA's have been woefully inadequate. It's no secret that this is a rogue company of replacement refs where bad calls have had disastrous results and that, in stark contrast, every other company on the river is running its business safely and responsibly. Does someone else have to die before this company is shut down?
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." Oscar Gamble
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Re: Woman drowned Thursday during Hudson River rafting trip

witch hobble
Harv, I'm sorry it took this thread to draw me in to your forums.  This was a terrible and most likely preventable tragedy.  

Without even getting into the level of intoxication of the guide, or the past history (both glorious and embarrassing.  LOTS of great guides and kayakers have come out of HRRC!) of the company, or specific details of the incident, this is the result of the poor choice made to put a first year guide on a solo trip on the gorge.  Sorry to have to say it.  But if that is what happened, it was inexcusable.

The Hudson gorge is awesome and remote and beautiful and fun.  But by modern whitewater standards it is not all that difficult of a run. The consequences are still there though, obviously.  The Indian River part of the trip is continuous and shallow and is the site of a fairly high percentage of the swims (thats people falling out of the raft and into the river to those of you who don't know the jargon) that occur on the trip.  It is early on, customers are not comfortable or warmed up.  The continuity of the river means that things happen fast and accidents can easily be the result of compounded situations or strings of events.

A second boat (raft or a kayker/canoer) or at least a second guide in the raft might not have prevented this from happening, but I have no doubt it would have helped the aftermath of the situation play out a little different.

Those of you who have not rafted the gorge but are tempted, PLEASE do not let this incident discourage you from enjoying this very cool and special part of the Adirondacks.

Full disclosure: I was a raft guide for 13 years, half of those years on the Hudson Gorge while living nearby.  And I am still a river freak and avid paddler who no longer lives close enough to a commercial rafting operation to make it worth my time.
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