Would you want to run a ski area?

frk wrote

We're a cynical, depressed bunch regarding the future of skiing. After reading these posts I wonder if anyone or corporation will buy Jay or Burke. Of course, any small business owner knows that work is 24/7 and enthusiasm can only last for so many years. Last winter while skiing at Whitewater in Canada, I had a conversation with a retired east coaster who had worked for several decades at the Bush. The conversation quickly turned into an epic rant about the horrible,soul sucking state of the east coast skiing industry and east coast skiing. I thought that I would have to perform a mercy killing to put him out of his misery but then he looked out the window at 3000 acres of powder with no ice or crowds and he morphed back into mr happy retirement guy. If there was a hot tub time machine and it was set for 1970 and I could bring back fat skis, I would happily put my life savings and others into buying a small area thinking that skiing will always be great with great winters and not knowing that Trump was lurking in out future.

I think we're all limited to our imaginations. Where could you put a ski area in the east where it would be viable? If these 20 trails were at Mt Beacon, maybe i'd be more interested, but I want to ski solid vert and natural snow and those places are taken. It also doesn't describe Jay, or even Burke. Jay is a prize, I really don't think it will be on the market long.

In the purest hypothetical, I'm totally in but it was presented in a more real-world sort of way. Honestly, if I was going to go into business for myself, I would want it to be some sort of outdoor sports oriented thing. In my current job, virtually all of my customers are small businesses and most of the owners, even those that started with a passion for it, are somewhere on the misery spectrum. Most small business owners are married to their work. If I was to go down that road, a ski mountain would be great. And I would ski every single day.

And if we're talking about a world where we can magically cut through all the red tape and start our own place from scratch, I have a spot picked out in the Catskills; north facing slope and over 2400 vert, closer to the city then any of the current mountains and with a good source of water at the base for snowmaking. I would make a mint.

East coast skiing is a gift of the gods. When Irving Langmuir organized the first ski train to North Creek it had to be delayed a year because of lack of snow. We can have powder days in a good snow year (even today) that rival western snow days, but then we can have bubkiss (like this year). It's nothing new. I would not want the hassle of running a ski area, the concern of the lives of the people who may or may not be able to work because of the weather. I would be happy if they just killed the whole MacSkiArea thing and went back to a few rope tows and mostly hike to areas. I like having cleared glades and trimmed terrain and I am OK if I only get a few runs down the mountain because that's all my old body will allow me to hike. Ok - so here it is, flame the ever livin shit out of me - Gore and WF are a scare on the Adirondacks. I do realize though that without them towns like NC & LP would disappear and many many people would loose their livelihood. That's is why I turn my head and bite my lip. Enough, sorry I said it.

It's hard not to be cynical looking at the scientific data proving climate shift.

Jay with it's average snowfall and proximity to the Canadian cities to the north seems like it should be just fine. With it's history Burke is definitely a harder sell but I think with the right people running it, maybe making some expansions happen, a killer marketing team, and other needed improvements should be able to make it be profitable but again, I have no idea what the whole deal is with Burke.

I txt'd Laz as I was curious about how much he skis:

"70 days a year, average maybe 15 runs per ski day"

You won't find an ounce of regret in him.

I worked at Smuggs for 4 years right after college. It honestly was the best time of my life.. I skied everyday, EVERDAY for 4 years. I had a bad crash which resulted in me being in physical therapy for 4 months, permanent loss of a certain % on strength in my right leg, and doc's orders not to ski anymore. If it wasn't for that crash I'm 100% certain I would've stayed up there for an indefinite number of years being a ski bum ---- ski bums are pros at living off of 18K/yr

So now I ski with a fucked up right leg, detached ACL in my left knee which slides out from time to time,  bulging discs in my lower back, and against Doc's orders.


So yeah, I'd run a ski area for sure

The answer for me 23 years ago was an emphatic yes. I'm not a "what if" person, for me the question was more "imagine if."  There will always be one for sale. I believe Cuchara in Colorado is up for sale.  They had a good year this year, but it wasn't enough to save them. Jay and Burke could be for sale. There is always Magic too.  After a season like this one there are usually some bargains.

Since I was 10 I dreamed about skiing and operating the place I love.  Now it’s about raising my family here and making a living doing what I love, and making Plattekill everything it can become.  I think of myself as a farmer. Our seeds are snow and the crop are you guys coming here to ski.  In a year like this, the yield is low.

Got to head back out now, getting the race course ready for next weekends Plattekill Gravity Open. Thanks to Ethan and my sons for all their help. Come on out it should be great.

My ski resort business model is based mostly on snowmaking and reliable conditions with lots of terrain open by the holidays.  High speed lifts are a plus, but are second to snowmaking upgrades.  I'd rather ride a slow lift and have more terrain open than have a fast lift uselessly rattling in the wind because there isn't enough snowmaking to get it running in time for the holidays.

I also like the idea of having a well rounded year round resort.  Waterparks, mountain biking, zip lines, alpine slides, etc.  Have enough to keep people occupied for an entire day.  If it's a good year, the summer activities can pay for a lift upgrade, more snowmaking, or any other possible upgrade that might be needed.  If it's a bad year, the summer activities can help to mitigate the risk of losing money.

Funny how nobody has mentioned a golf course yet. That sport is dead. But, I might put one in, maybe nine holes, and turn that over to professional management, with another stipulation. I get to do the mowing on one of those big ass tractor mowers. You know, the ones with an enclosed cab and the retractable side cutters. Yeah. Air conditioned and a monster stereo. Nice. Groom all winter, mow all summer. Heaven.

You should hang out with Brett Favre, Benny. It's said he's waaaay into grass cutting ,too.

mattchuck2 wrote

I can't understand the people who don't want to work in the business of the thing they like to do. You must like something about doing your regular job. You jump out of bed and go every day. Weird that you don't have that mindset when it comes to your job, but you do have the mindset when it comes to skiing.

If you're arguing that you'd get more skiing time if you didn't own the place, I sympathize with that argument, perhaps you're not envisioning the kind of ownership that I am.

Unless you are starting with a shit load of money and you can afford to hire managers to do ownership tasks, I am not sure your vision would be possible. I suspect most ski area management are working 60+ hours per week in season and not skiing much. Maybe I am totally wrong, but that is how management goes in most service industries. It sure does in my industry in which I am a manager.

Regarding working in a business that you like what you do... don't confuse industry with what you actually do when you go to work. I love having ownership, managing people, managing operations, problem solving, and taking an operation to another level all while driving financial success. I love running my show and being able to do it my way. I can do that in any industry, I don't need to love the industry in order to love what I "do". I just don't want to look out my window and seeing people having fun skiing while I can't. Out of sight, outta mind.

If anyone has examples of owner/managers in the ski industry that get to ski a lot, I'd love to hear it. But I think that those folks are the very rare exception rather than the rule.

Owning a landscaping business is a whole lot better for skiing than working for a ski area.

My personal ski bum Rule #1 is to never work for the mountain....ever. If you do you better love working for the mountain and not actually skiing the mountain.

Snowballs wrote

You should hang out with Brett Favre, Benny. It's said he's waaaay into grass cutting ,too.

It was my job as a kid (lazy brother). I still get a buzz from the smell of fresh cut grass with some gasoline and Briggs and Stratton exhaust thrown in.

I think you would get quite a bit of skiing in, but not recreational skiing. You would be out checking on the overnight grooming & snow making. Making sure people have the supplies they need, are there any lift issues, etc. I bet you would be out and about before the place opened and then again maybe mid afternoon to set up the evening work schedule (what needs grooming, where does snow need to be made. You would have a fair bit of snow sled time buzzing from place to place. So you ski day count would be high but they would not be all day skiing and there would be a lot of "work skiing". The rest of your day would be in the office ordering supplies, dealing with vendors, setting up maintenance schedules, checking on sales and advertisement. You may have specific people to do a lot of the low level work but you need to establish the plan and set the tone. You could just leave it all to an area manager but don't be surprised if you start loosing money as things go in the shitter. My impression of a small to mid size area - say like West Mtn or Platty is that you have to stay on it to keep it healthy and you have to know the operation inside and out and you are always hiring people as staff is hard to come by and hard to keep. As soon as you close the mtn in the spring you have to make sure everything gets mothballed properly and then you start landscaping and preparing for the summer business. Before the first flakes hit you are brush cutting and getting the trails ready and making sure all the buildings are taken care of. It sounds like a never ending job. At least a farmer gets the winter off (except for taking care of the animals) - but since Laz chimed in, he can agree or disagree.

raisingarizona wrote

 My personal ski bum Rule #1 is to never work for the mountain....ever. If you do you better love working for the mountain and not actually skiing the mountain.

Absolutely. 100 % true,,,,, but then there's that Fugitive Ted fellow who ,,,,,wth does he do ?

I think Aaron the GM at WF skis way more than most GMs and I think that is a good thing

I'd rather join the ski patrol....

Benny Profane wrote

 I still get a buzz from the smell of fresh cut grass with some gasoline and Briggs and Stratton exhaust thrown in.

LOL,  I prefer Honda exhaust. It has a cleaner smell, probably because it burns cleaner. It does have a different smell from a Briggs.  I have a part time job as a groundskeeper at a place up in Cooperstown, and I spend a LOT of time on a mower.

I also work part time at Plattekill. I do it because I actually enjoy it. I drive further, and get paid less, but for a couple days a week, it is almost like getting paid to play. Also, it is a summer job, and that sets it apart a little bit in my opinion. I personally don't think I would have very much fun working there during the winter season, for the same reasons that were already stated. I work on mountain bike trails, and I work with people who come to Plattekill for the first time, and need a guide to show them around the trails. I love mountain biking, but working at a bike park doesn't  seem to take away from the fun for me. When I want to go riding for fun, I go to another mountain like Windham, Mountain Creek, or Killington.

However, I have demonstrated my passion for the ski business through my private ski hill known as Woodstream. For whatever reason, I have always had a love for snow. I was put on XC skis when I was 5 years old, and developed an incredible fascination with the process of sliding on soft fluffy stuff. It wasn't until I was 12 that I experienced DH skiing for the first time with my middle school ski club at Greek Peak. My very first time skiing the mountain was blowing snow at full bore, and I had never seen anything like it before. I already had a love for XC skiing, and experiencing the whole concept of a ski resort, and process of lifts and snowmaking was mind-blowing to me. I skied several times that winter, and now I try to get 50 days a year.  Later that summer, I began to plan out my first ski slope on the land my parents owned 2 miles up the road. And that has evolved into what Woodstream has become today.

It is fun for me, because everything is low budget, and I don't need to make money to be successful. It is essentially a hobby.  Everything I do with my hill is super exciting to me. If it wasn't, I wouldn't do it. I do dream of owning a bigger mountain someday, but I am not setting my heart on it. I have a lot of career opportunities that could potentially make a lot more money, and allow me to ski more exotic places. However, If I could work as a manager at a ski area, and ski 70 days a year, I think I would jump all over it. There may also be job opprotunities for lift companies, or snowmaking companies which I see as a possibility as well.

A few years ago, someone contacted me about taking over management of a struggling cross country ski center.  My friends were jealous, they were like, Awesome, you'd be skiing 100 days a winter.  And I was like, not so fast.  You've got to hire reliable people, do paperwork, groom, maintain the place and etc etc.  You're not skiing 4 hours a day if you own a small xc center.