no more American teet for Isreal?

This is kind of a big deal. I guess Obama has short timers syndrome and is getting really real.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/06/27/president-obama-its-time-stop-subsidizing-israeli-defense-industry.html

spend it here, i like it. Obama continues to kick ass as usual.

It's a change that needs to occur. Israel has a pretty strong economy and although they still need support we need to cut out this loop hole. We also need to cut back on their ability to bid for US government research dollars which compete with US companies and is just another way to pass subsidies to them.

wrong

if Israel gets into a war and gets overrun they will nuke large parts of the middle east and start WW3

we need to be a friend to them that is the voice of reason while keeping the wolves at bay.  They need to be strong enough that no one will mess with them and that requires our support now so we don't have to commit troops later.

Coach, not sure you have to worry too much about this weakening the Israeli defense.  Aid to Israel is higher under Obama than under any other President.  This change would just require Israel to buy weapons from us with that military aid, as opposed to investing a quarter of it in their own military industrial complex.  Sure, buying from us as opposed to making their own might mean they end up with a few less tanks or whatnot, but it's not going to lead to WW3.

You are correct

I had just skimmed the article and if it means they have to buy US military gear with the aid we give them I am all for it

MY BAD

interesting. Israel needs our support eh? So no one here seems to think there might be a connection with terrorist threats and our support for Isreals occupation? Hmm.


Regardless, it's most likely just a bunch of fluff anyways. It's probably just more of Obamas "hey look I tried but congress keeps shutting me down" maneuver to continue looking like a good guy. Beyond that even I bet our military/weapons industry will still happily sell them weapons.
 

raisingarizona wrote

interesting. Israel needs our support eh? So no one here seems to think there might be a connection with terrorist threats and our support for Isreals occupation? Hmm.


Regardless, it's most likely just a bunch of fluff anyways. It's probably just more of Obamas "hey look I tried but congress keeps shutting me down" maneuver to continue looking like a good guy. Beyond that even I bet our military/weapons industry will still happily sell them weapons.

First off, I don't think this is a fair title for the thread, and I disagree with your assumptions from the get-go. Israel's relationship with the US shouldn't and can't be reduced to this one dismissive line and your POV takes a very simplified view of the situation.


Is there a connection between terrorism and support of Israel? Probably. It is hardly a coincidence that Ataturk airport was bombed today killing 40 innocent people right after they restored diplomatic ties with Israel. But is that a reason not to support Israel? Because you're a scared ass pussy of merely being able to sit at a table with Israel, like the Turks just agreed to do? I hardly think so. These terrorists are cowards and their fear is that people can talk and get along and trade and have different lifestyles.

If it wasn't support for Israel, I think the evidence shows that they can drum up any reason to murder innocent people, so if your argument is "we bring it on ourselves by supporting israel", that has zero merit.

And, much like your dismissal of the SC, Obama isn't just grandstanding here. Politics can be slow and dirty, but this is specifically getting something done. It is tightening up the hose on funds to get them to change their behavior and attitude. It's the carrot and the stick. I don't think that Bernie or Trump or Brexit types understand that you can't turn the titanic on a dime. This is how the game is played without destroying economies and peoples lives.

There is tons of blood and blame to go around on both sides, but our defense spending should be purchasing influence in Israel as well as weapons. We and the UN have made many suggestions to them about the settlements that they have ignored.

It is not acceptable that they thumb their noses at us while not listening to our recommendations and this is a good first step to hopefully swinging some sense into voting the old fucks out. Obama, while giving them more money than any previous has actually taken the strongest tone of disapproval since Reagan and i think he is handling a bad situation there as well as anyone since Carter (who created the longest lasting peace between a muslim country and Israel since its founding).

Dude, I really dont want to get in a tit-for-tat about Israel and Palestine. I am fully aware of what is going on there, and I hold Israel to a very high standard that they aren't meeting. I expect less from the Palestinian side, and they also don't meet my expectations. But that movie is dumb, off-base, and completely one sided. There is a lot of nuance that is misrepresented. I just scrubbed it for a few seconds, and from the Hawking quote which can be used for either side to the idea that the media only shows Israeli victims (absolutely not true anymore, think of the soccer incident on the beach in Gaza and then try to think of one memorable Israeli incident despite the fact that many have been killed quite recently, and i bet you can't), it is simply out of date and prone to the bias of its authors.

I am not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, I am pro-Humanity and what you posted is propaganda and achieves nothing but finger pointing, not solutions. There is no way to approach this problem without really trying to put your feet in the shoes of both people with the goal of empathy.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat over Israel, I don't really know that much about it. I wouldn't say that the video is one sided at all.

If anything it puts light on the fact that our media here in the US has a way of manipulating the truth and that most Americans develop their opinions based on that information. It's also about terrorism and how it gets out of control and both parties will believe that they are justified in doing what they are doing but truthfully at the core we are all the same and desire the same things from life.

I didn't get that the movie was anti Israel at all. Maybe you should actually watch it.

Either way I don't think we should support Israel in any way as well as the other countries we do business with that commit crimes on humanity.

raisingarizona wrote

Either way I don't think we should support Israel in any way as well as the other countries we do business with that commit crimes on humanity.

I agree, no one should pay any taxes until this situation is rectified (since we are definitely the #1 offender).

raisingarizona wrote

If anything it puts light on the fact that our media here in the US has a way of manipulating the truth and that most Americans develop their opinions based on that information.

And what truth is that?

I was stating what I thought the director/producers theme was in the documentary.

Why you so mad?

If you want to talk about the situation between Israel and Palestine I would probably say that our media has been incredibly biased in Israel's favor for the painfully obvious reasons.

The media had a pro-Israel bias, I feel it has swung around to the other side.

Look at the title of this thread. In one post you compared Israel to nazi germany, and then edited it. Even the focus on Israel's injustice compared to much larger problems elsewhere like China or Saudi Arabia is unfair. Israel doesn't even get to be spelled right! What does that mean for its right to exist.

I'm not mad, but I do think they're in a very precarious spot some of which is of their own doing, and some which is not.

ml242 wrote

The media had a pro-Israel bias, I feel it has swung around to the other side.

Look at the title of this thread. In one post you compared Israel to nazi germany, and then edited it. Even the focus on Israel's injustice compared to much larger problems elsewhere like China or Saudi Arabia is unfair. Israel doesn't even get to be spelled right! What does that mean for its right to exist.

I'm not mad, but I do think they're in a very precarious spot some of which is of their own doing, and some which is not.

Ya, it was a bad choice of words. I don't always say the right things so I edit my stuff. As far as the title goes why are you so offended by my bad spelling?

Sorry dude, you are being defensive but I'm not going to back away from the fact that Israel shouldn't be getting our support.

Watch the documentary.

raisingarizona wrote

Watch the documentary.

I really can't watch it. I started it, I disagree with the premise of showing Palestinians alongside Indians yearning for freedom from Britain, black people in the states. It's a false equivalence, so they lose all the credibility for me from the beginning. From their it goes on the cite statistics I don't believe. Then there's the backdrop of weeping women for the rest of it, it's useless propaganda to me.

That said: I am not in favor of the settlements or the way Palestinians are being denied their right to self-determination. Full stop. It isn't fair. It is stealing their lives and livelihood. And it should stop. But simply pointing a finger at Israel is really not the best way imo about how to get there.

I really like what Barack is doing and would like to see someone else continue to leverage change.

===

If you want to know what's going on there I would suggest you try reading Haaretz. It is an Israeli paper that is probably the most against status quo, critical of the hardline government and the settlements. They publish stuff like this: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.727935 that is hard to imagine almost getting printed here.

It also has a firm paywall that can be annoying to get around.

Israel is a complicated country and there is a lot of shit they do that isn't pretty, but in this dance their are two people doing the tango.