Bobcat: Tribute To A Lost NYS Ski Area

If you spend any time with me skiing in my "home" region, the Catskills, you'll eventually hear me lament the fact that Bobcat Ski Center is still closed. Even though I only skied there maybe a dozen times before it closed mid-decade, it was the closest I ever came to a private lift-served mountain.  Over the next few months, I'm hoping to learn more about the possibility of an eventual re-opening in the next few years, and will report about it here on Harvey Road.  But before we start discussing that, I thought it might be helpful to those who'd never skied there to get an overview of what Bobcat was, and why it was so fascinating to me:

Bobcat, NY: Time Stands Still

James ... obviously you have some affinity for things old-time, maybe a little off kilter and out-of-step.  When you talk about Bobcat, it's almost like a story about "the one that got away."

Harvey44 wrote

James ... obviously you have some affinity for things old-time, maybe a little off kilter and out-of-step.  When you talk about Bobcat, it's almost like a story about "the one that got away."

A while back, someone asked me "what if a new owner with deep pockets came in, put in a new lift, installed snowmaking guns, and renovated or replaced the lodge -- would it still be one of your favorite places?"

My answer "probably not."  Terrain-wise, it's about the same acreage and vert as Plattekill, but not as steep.  If it became popular, I wouldn't abandon it, but I certainly wouldn't be as passionate.  The "time-machine" aspect that I described in the article is very compelling for me ("it looked and felt like a lost ski area, but was still open").

I guess that Bobcat is one of those "be careful what you wish for" items.  Fingers crossed regardless.

I skied there a few years ago with my son and had a good time.

It's a good mountain for children if there is enough snow coverage.

So is this place closed for good then? It was super charming - and "charm" is usually totally lost on me when it comes to ski areas. I'm contemptuous of any place that doesn't have high speed lifts. Magic Mountain, for example, could fall off the map for all I care. I had such a negative experience there a few years ago... But Bobcat was really nice. I loved the lodge, the trails had lots of character, and I loved the "out of the way" corner of the Catskills in which it's found.

I skied Bobcat a handful of times in the early 1990s. As mentioned above it is a true gem. Almost every trail can be skied by  intermediate skiers. I think it has better blue and green skiing than its neighbor Plattekill (directly 6 miles to the NE). All the trails sit in a bowl that mostly faces NW. The trails face north, east and south. The 4 trails on the far left when facing up the mountain are classics and face south. A number of trails are about 10 to 20 feet wide and never see the sun.

I think a double chair to replace the long t-bar would make the place way more attractive to green and blue skiers. I seem to remember some snowmaking in front of the base lodge, but I could be mistaken. The lack of snowmaking on even one trail from the top is a huge problem and is probably a major reason why it has not opened the last few seasons.

Bobcat is a little further drive for me ( north Jersey) vs. Plattekill. Combine this with better expert trails and glades, some top to bottom snowmaking, a claimed 65" advantage in natural snow (100 vs 165) and no tbar and Plattekill was the choice many more times than Bobcat.

I found a couple photos of me at Bobcat seven or eight years ago.


You'd expect to see cows in there, not a t-bar!


My technique has improved since this pic.  Really!!

x10003q wrote

Bobcat is a little further drive for me ( north Jersey) vs. Plattekill. Combine this with better expert trails and glades, some top to bottom snowmaking, a claimed 65" advantage in natural snow (100 vs 165) and no tbar and Plattekill was the choice many more times than Bobcat.

There's no way  that Bobcat only got 100 inches a year -- that's even less than Hunter and Windham.  The ski area claimed 150; anecdotally, I'd put it in the 130-140 range.  

Jamesdeluxe wrote

x10003q wrote

Bobcat is a little further drive for me ( north Jersey) vs. Plattekill. Combine this with better expert trails and glades, some top to bottom snowmaking, a claimed 65" advantage in natural snow (100 vs 165) and no tbar and Plattekill was the choice many more times than Bobcat.

There's no way  that Bobcat only got 100 inches a year -- that's even less than Hunter and Windham.  The ski area claimed 150; anecdotally, I'd put it in the 130-140 range.  

I took the 100" Bobcat number from here http://www.skiernet.com/ski_ny.html. The number does seem to be lower than the other Catskills areas (Plattekill 165, Belleayre 141, Hunter 125; but Windham 110, Holiday in Monticello 90).
It could be just a local topographic difference as the base area is west of the summit. None of the other 4 major areas have this configuration. It could be skiernet is just wrong or when they called Bobcat whoever answered the phone said "I would guess about 100 inches".

There is a long ridge going towards the SSE that ends up at Plattekill and Plattekill sits in this c shaped bowl. Bobcat is on Mt Pisgah facing west. Maybe the other side of Mt Pisgah ( which matches Plattekill's configuration) gets the larger amounts.

There is one other option - maybe I have no idea of what i am talking about.

x10003q wrote

I took the 100" Bobcat number from here http://www.skiernet.com/ski_ny.html.

Harv and I talked about the Skiernet numbers recently, particularly in regard to Plattekill.  

He refuses to believe that a Catskill ski area gets significantly more snowfall than Gore.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

x10003q wrote

I took the 100" Bobcat number from here http://www.skiernet.com/ski_ny.html.

Harv and I talked about the Skiernet numbers recently, particularly in regard to Plattekill.  

He refuses to believe that a Catskill ski area gets significantly more snowfall than Gore.

It's hard for me to imagine that Bobcat and Plattekill get a materially divergent amount of snow.  They are in extremely close proximity to each other, roughly the same elevation and lie on the same NNE/SSW running ridge.  

Not surprising at all that they do better than Gore.  As Harv well knows and surely rues on chilly days with a strong west wind, much of the snowfall for Gore gets sucked out by ranges to its west in the Dacks.  OTOH, Bobcat and Plattekill are first in line for lake effect when it's coming in via a NW wind. Not much in the way of mountains between that range and Lake Ontario.  Also, they are so far west, they probably benefit from less warm air intruding during coastal storms or on inland runners.

I think Jamesdeluxe is teasing me. While I am certainly a Gore "homer" facts is facts.  I think it was Hudson Hiker who said that Gore is in the donut hole of snowbelt.  Last January I used the phrase snow shadow.

If you watch the radar like I do you know Tin Woodsman is right. Often the last bit of moisture is snagged out of lake effect plumes by the north/south running ridges west of Indian Lake.

I never paid too much attention to the Catskills before this past season when Jamesdeluxe and JasonWx turned me on to Belleayre and Plattekill. I'd ski Hunter early season when temps were cold, to take advantage of their firepower. But that was about it. My eyes have been opened.

I'd always assumed that Hunter got natural snow less than Gore, and Plattekill got more, but I didn't think Platte's number was as high as the 192. I'd thought it was more like 170.

Even though it's hard to believe given how close they are as the crow flies -- you can clearly see Plattekill across the valley from Deer Run at Belleayre -- the conventional wisdom about Plattekill getting 20% more snow out of practically every weather event is IMHO true.  Harv had a first-hand view of that during The Big One last February.  That's why Platte's approx 190 inches to Belle's approx 157 inches makes sense to me.

The reason that 190 inches doesn't seem realistic at Plattekill is because it takes a lot longer to recover from thaws and NCP (due to limited snowmaking), so the base usually doesn't get insanely deep.  Jason and I still laugh about this lovely morning in 2008.

I'm not sure I'd buy into that 192" number, but it's certainly up there.  Averaging in the neighborhood of 200" is pretty rare in the East, especially outside of VT.  Only Wildcat, Balsams, and Saddleback achieve this figure as far as I can tell, though I'm sure there could be some smaller resorts in Northern Maine (Squaw?) or Western NY that are in the discussion as well.  Either way, the number is pretty small.  So for Plattekill to weigh in at 192" is really saying something.  If that number is accurate (no one knows how that was measured [ a guy using his arm?], where it was measured [summit vs. base vs. a mile down the road vs. a protected drift] or over what period it was measured [5 vs 10 vs 20 years or more]), it's hard to imagine Bobcat averaging less than 175".

Anyway, getting back to Bobcat, jamesdeluxe raises an interesting point.  Is Bobcat the equivalent of a Vietnamese village?  IOW, you need to destroy it to save it?  Realistically, they'd need a double chair for the main lift and perhaps a few snowmaking runs from the summit.  That would require a minimum of $2-3MM, so I'm not sure how the economics could work given the remote location.  The owner of Plattekill was smart to jump on the off-piste/natural snow bandwagon early enough such that I think they are seeing an uptick in their business.  Plattekill was also more modern to begin with.  My guess is that Bobcat will end up on NELSAP (NYLSAP?) for good.  Alas.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Even though it's hard to believe given how close they are as the crow flies -- you can clearly see Plattekill across the valley from Deer Run at Belleayre -- the conventional wisdom about Plattekill getting 20% more snow out of practically every weather event is IMHO true.  Harv had a first-hand view of that during The Big One last February.  That's why Platte's approx 190 inches to Belle's approx 157 inches makes sense to me.

The reason that 190 inches doesn't seem realistic at Plattekill is because it takes a lot longer to recover from thaws and NCP (due to limited snowmaking), so the base usually doesn't get insanely deep.  Jason and I still laugh about this lovely morning in 2008.

I don't doubt that Plattekill and Bobcat get significantly more than Bell, despite their proximity.  That Plattekill ridge sucks a lot of the snow out coming from the NW before it can get to Bell.  But in a world in which Bobcat is on that same ridge at the same elevation, I suspect they receive a lot closer to 192" (or whatever number Plattekill actually gets) than the 157" for Bell.

Tin Woodsman wrote

  My guess is that Bobcat will end up on NELSAP (NYLSAP?) for good.  Alas.

I hope you're wrong, but fear that you're right.  I'm hoping to post some updates (good or bad) about it in the coming months, so stay tuned.

Tin Woodsman wrote

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Even though it's hard to believe given how close they are as the crow flies -- you can clearly see Plattekill across the valley from Deer Run at Belleayre -- the conventional wisdom about Plattekill getting 20% more snow out of practically every weather event is IMHO true.  Harv had a first-hand view of that during The Big One last February.  That's why Platte's approx 190 inches to Belle's approx 157 inches makes sense to me.

The reason that 190 inches doesn't seem realistic at Plattekill is because it takes a lot longer to recover from thaws and NCP (due to limited snowmaking), so the base usually doesn't get insanely deep.  Jason and I still laugh about this lovely morning in 2008.

I don't doubt that Plattekill and Bobcat get significantly more than Bell, despite their proximity.  That Plattekill ridge sucks a lot of the snow out coming from the NW before it can get to Bell.  But in a world in which Bobcat is on that same ridge at the same elevation, I suspect they receive a lot closer to 192" (or whatever number Plattekill actually gets) than the 157" for Bell.

I was not clear in in my post. Bobcat and Plattekill are not on the same ridge but are on roughly parallel ridges 6 miles apart. Plattekill's seems to be longer and steeper. The ridge starts sw of South Kortright and contunues to Plattekill. As I mentioned the top  of Plattekill's triple chair is NW of the base area so the prevailing winds that create the lake effect snow follow the ridge and come over the top of Plattekill's c shaped bowl. Bearpen has a very similar configuration and is known for deep snow accumulations. Bobcat's ridge starts just south of Bovina Center and continues to Mt Pisgah. Bobcat's exposure is on a shoulder of Mt Pisgah on the western side. It just might not get the same accumulations because  its location is not in the direct line of the ridge.
Google topo of Bobcat and Plattekill
I just checked the link and the topo does not come up in the link. You need to play with the features to see the topo.

Many times a day during ski season I check the live web cams at Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. If the lake effect snow is cranking, P is usually showing snow with Hunter sometimes showing snow and Windham not so often showing snow.

This map has the town center of Andes, NY marked with an A:



I know zip about Bobcat, but it looks like there is a ski area northeast of town:



And even closer:



Somebody confirm that I have the right spot? Is it on Grommeck Rd? Couldn't figure it out from the website.

Also - if Platte, Hunter and Windham all have webcams, we've got to get those (and Whiteface) incorporated into the weather wall.

Harv - that is Bobcat. Plattekill is just above the Plattekill State Forest description on the big map.

x10003q wrote

Tin Woodsman wrote

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Even though it's hard to believe given how close they are as the crow flies -- you can clearly see Plattekill across the valley from Deer Run at Belleayre -- the conventional wisdom about Plattekill getting 20% more snow out of practically every weather event is IMHO true.  Harv had a first-hand view of that during The Big One last February.  That's why Platte's approx 190 inches to Belle's approx 157 inches makes sense to me.

The reason that 190 inches doesn't seem realistic at Plattekill is because it takes a lot longer to recover from thaws and NCP (due to limited snowmaking), so the base usually doesn't get insanely deep.  Jason and I still laugh about this lovely morning in 2008.

I don't doubt that Plattekill and Bobcat get significantly more than Bell, despite their proximity.  That Plattekill ridge sucks a lot of the snow out coming from the NW before it can get to Bell.  But in a world in which Bobcat is on that same ridge at the same elevation, I suspect they receive a lot closer to 192" (or whatever number Plattekill actually gets) than the 157" for Bell.

I was not clear in in my post. Bobcat and Plattekill are not on the same ridge but are on roughly parallel ridges 6 miles apart. Plattekill's seems to be longer and steeper. The ridge starts sw of South Kortright and contunues to Plattekill. As I mentioned the top  of Plattekill's triple chair is NW of the base area so the prevailing winds that create the lake effect snow follow the ridge and come over the top of Plattekill's c shaped bowl. Bearpen has a very similar configuration and is known for deep snow accumulations. Bobcat's ridge starts just south of Bovina Center and continues to Mt Pisgah. Bobcat's exposure is on a shoulder of Mt Pisgah on the western side. It just might not get the same accumulations because  its location is not in the direct line of the ridge.
Google topo of Bobcat and Plattekill
I just checked the link and the topo does not come up in the link. You need to play with the features to see the topo.

Many times a day during ski season I check the live web cams at Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. If the lake effect snow is cranking, P is usually showing snow with Hunter sometimes showing snow and Windham not so often showing snow.

I'm not sure I see what you're saying, even after looking at the topo again.  Here is a retarded version of a Gogle topo with pins on the exact location of each mountain's base area:

http://tinyurl.com/36jab9g

Note that Plattekill sits at the confluence of 2-3 ridges.  the main ridge starts from up north of the Relay State Forest and heads SSW, splitting on Plattekill Mountain.  One branch heads almost due south and peters out due north of Margaretville.  What I perceive to be the main part of that ridge continues SSW towards Bobcat and beyond, with generally higher elevations throughout.  It's probably just semantics as to which is the main one but it's indisputable (to me eyes at least) that Plattekill and Bobcat are on the same ridge.  While there's a chance that Bobcat is too far south to catch the best LES flow, I don't think it's because of the orientation of the mountain it lies on.  After all, the summit t-bar is on a direct ESE/WNW heading which should be sufficient to catch those bands.

Interestingly, as I was looking for Plattekill on Google, I saw a ski area to its north that I didn't know existed.  It is the now-defunct Scotch Valley just outside of Stamford.  This is a small area with only 750' of vertical topping out at about 2700', but I found statistics claiming it received 160" per year (as against 165" for Plattekill from the same source), which would be consistent with the observation that this is the area laying within the bullseye on the KALB map.