Jay, Burke and EB-5

Benny Profane wrote

How many people mountain bike that seriously? Really? Not many people ski, relatively speaking, but, downhill MTB? C'mon. Ain't happening, on a large scale. Dangerous as hell. Personally, I'd build a water park and tubing hill. Really. That's a cash cow,sort of, if it's close enough for a day trip or quick overnight. But that place ain't close to anything. Sorry.

Benny, you are a road rider, you don't get it. It is not just "downhill MTB" at Burke, it is trail riding Nirvana. Quebexicans in lycra flock there in hordes. It is big enough to support three bike shops in a tiny town:
http://www.bikemag.com/2016-bible-of-bike-tests/bike-shops-of-burke/#5oW7IFp60KzTXrIF.97

Flow trails are a hell of a lot of fun. I just got into it last summer and totally dig it. The Ski Bowl in North Creek has some great stuff, check it out if you are in the area.

Mountain biking is growing in popularity and I think if done right a bike park could appeal to people that have never even thought about trying mountain biking.

If I were going to build a bike park I would want to make sure there were plenty of machine built beginner trails to get people into it and to grab someone that might just do it every now and then. I haven't seen a park yet built with the type of thing I'm thinking about. Think family fun where they don't just buy an affordable lift ticket but they also rent the gear and hang around buying food and t-shirts or whatever.

The traditional old school dh trails and the super fast big jump lines are dangerous but I really believe that you could create something for a much broader market. Bike parks have been blowing up all over the country the last few years it just needs to be designed and marketed a little differently imho.

Being that the area around Burke is a huge target for all kinds of riders I bet you could even get the lycra crowd to get a half day or full day ticket for at least one day of their visit if you had enough trails that don't scare people away.

The thing about mountain biking is that even though the initial purchase of a bike is expensive once you have a bike it's relatively inexpensive. It's also a recreational activity that is enjoyed during warmer weather, a lot of people aren't attracted to skiing because of the cold.

I don't know Benny, I might be wrong but I believe it's possible. It's just going to take someone with the vision and bad ass marketing skills imo.

Sick Bird Rider wrote

Benny Profane wrote

How many people mountain bike that seriously? Really? Not many people ski, relatively speaking, but, downhill MTB? C'mon. Ain't happening, on a large scale. Dangerous as hell. Personally, I'd build a water park and tubing hill. Really. That's a cash cow,sort of, if it's close enough for a day trip or quick overnight. But that place ain't close to anything. Sorry.

Benny, you are a road rider, you don't get it. It is not just "downhill MTB" at Burke, it is trail riding Nirvana. Quebexicans in lycra flock there in hordes. It is big enough to support three bike shops in a tiny town:
http://www.bikemag.com/2016-bible-of-bike-tests/bike-shops-of-burke/#5oW7IFp60KzTXrIF.97

HAHA! Wait......Benny is a road rider! Dude, that is way more dangerous imo than mountain biking! I would never trust my life along side of the gaping motorists!

It's all a matter of perspective, sort of like how I think skiing on busy groomers is much more dangerous than skiing in a managed semi-like back country skiing area with lower angle trees.

Hey, what do I know. Limited demographics, though. I mean, write off most people over 50 learning or seriously pursuing MTB, but, you'll get a lot of older people skiing. It's a young mans sport. And, sorry, but spending time in Moab really turned me off to the idea of the activity. It's one thing to bite it hucking 20 feet into a bowl on skis, but crashing on jagged rocks? No thanks.

Benny Profane wrote

Hey, what do I know. Limited demographics, though. I mean, write off most people over 50 learning or seriously pursuing MTB, but, you'll get a lot of older people skiing. It's a young mans sport. And, sorry, but spending time in Moab really turned me off to the idea of the activity. It's one thing to bite it hucking 20 feet into a bowl on skis, but crashing on jagged rocks? No thanks.

The snow is a lot more forgiving than rock and dirt but Moab isn't exactly like the riding in the north east. I think proper trail construction could change the perception on mountain biking. A trail that is designed for bikes with no rocks on it but fun and turny with cool burms and whoopdy-doos but is aligned in a way that keeps the riders speed down at a very safe and comfortable speed can be built by a builder with a good eye. I haven't seen or ridden that trail yet but I know that it can be done. Have a few of those and we might see the participation market change into more of a family activity than just the young extreme sports audience.

I wish we had trails like that to take my daughter on. She would really like it if she could ride a chairlift and not have to do any climbing too.

Just one opinion, but I started mountain biking at 56 (I'm 64 now).Despite the image, I've broken and sprained more stuff skiing than mountain biking. No, I don't do big hucks, but enjoy tech stuff as my skills have improved. It's a perfect complement to skiing.

Benny Profane wrote

Hey, what do I know. Limited demographics, though. I mean, write off most people over 50 learning or seriously pursuing MTB, but, you'll get a lot of older people skiing. It's a young mans sport. And, sorry, but spending time in Moab really turned me off to the idea of the activity. It's one thing to bite it hucking 20 feet into a bowl on skis, but crashing on jagged rocks? No thanks.

I am with you Benny. I tried MTB in the 90s including some lift served downhill. Worked hard at liking it. After a summer I swapped out the knobby tires for slicks, switched the shocks out for a regular fork added some racks and had a nice tour/camping bike.

"Quick update, we will be extending the early season pass pricing (both the rates and benefits) from May 9th to July 11th on all of our Burke and Jay Peak pass products. We want to give everyone a chance to take a step back and verify that we're making good on our business-as-usual commitment. This has been an awkward, difficult, but still hopeful time for all of us and we appreciate you sticking with us as we try and navigate this. Special shout at Carmenza Montague for the solid suggestion and caring enough about the big picture to think small." -steve

Vail will swoop in and buy it for pennies on the dollar when everything goes down....

raisingarizona wrote

If I were going to build a bike park I would want to make sure there were plenty of machine built beginner trails to get people into it and to grab someone that might just do it every now and then. I haven't seen a park yet built with the type of thing I'm thinking about. Think family fun where they don't just buy an affordable lift ticket but they also rent the gear and hang around buying food and t-shirts or whatever.

that's burke and highland.   on a normal summer weekend a couple hundred people including families with little peeps waiting to ride super smooth flow trails.

obvi there is expert trails and jumps as well but the flow trails are what pulls in the numbers/broaden the demographic.  burke serves as a nice down day when riding multiple days on the kingdom trail system.  the 40-60,000 number is for people paying to ride the kingdom trail system.  burke is a nice day off...  

Benny Profane wrote

It's one thing to bite it hucking 20 feet into a bowl on skis, but crashing on jagged rocks? No thanks.

http://digital.vpr.net/post/documents-show-feds-were-quiros-long-state-launched-probe

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm on the fence on that idea. Everybody loves to hate Vail but they get shit done. It could be a good thing for ski areas that struggle like Burke

It would seem like a no brainer to buy Jay for either Vail or Intrawest.  Burke is another story and they wont likely have to get sold together.  I really don't know why anyone would want to own Burke.

Given that Mont Tremblant's biggest competition for the Montreal market is Jay I'd say Intrawest would want it the most.

Vail on the other hand would totally change the ski business landscape in the east if they bought Jay.  The Epic pass would drive others to merge and we would see a huge wave of consolidation IMO.  If the price was right AIG would sell Stowe and you would think Sugarbush could be had for the right price as well.  Orda would have a hard time competing I would think long term.

Coach Z wrote

Given that Mont Tremblant's biggest competition for the Montreal market is Jay I'd say Intrawest would want it the most.

That's exactly why Intrawest shouldn't buy Jay.  They'd just be canabalizing their Tremblant skier visits.  Better to compete against Jay as they always have.  IMO Jay is an excellent opportunity for Vail.  

Why not Burke though too? I mean, couldn't Vail be a game changer for that mountains success?

CONTENTS DELETED

Good breakdown here that started all the way back 2008

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2803423/State-v-Quiros-Et-Al-COMPLAINT-Doc-Cloud.txt


71. Even at the conclusion of Phase I, which Was completed years later, Quiros and
Stenger, through Jay Peak, were entitled to take at most approximately $4.3 million of investor
 broken down as follows: approximately $1.9 million for developer fees; $1.8 million for
the purchase of the land; and approximately $600,000 for contingencies. This is far less than the
$12.4 million of Phase I investor funds that were used to purchase Jay Peak Resort.

72. The Phase II PPM showed a detailed breakdown of how Jay Peak would spend
the funds it raised from investors, including: approximately $60 million for construction of the
Hotel and other parts of Phase approximately $5.5 million for developer fees; approximately
$3 million for contingencies; and $4.2 million for the purchase of the land. Nowhere in the
Phase II PPM  in the detailed breakdown summarized above did it. allow for the use of $9.5
million in investor funds to purchase Jay Peak Resort. Furthermore, Quiros and Stenger, through
Jay Peak, were not entitled to any investor money at the time of the Acquisition because
construction on Phase II had not yet started and the land sale had not yet occurred.

73. Additionally, after the misappropriation of the Phase II investor funds, Defendants
did not correct the document they gave to future investors to show that $9.5 million of investor
funds had been used to purchase Jay Peak Resort.

sec one here
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-69.pdf

raisingarizona wrote

Why not Burke though too? I mean, couldn't Vail be a game changer for that mountains success?

Although Vail could be a game changer for Burke, Burke would not be a game changer for Vail.  Jay, on the other hand, could be a game changer for Vail.