Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

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Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Any chemists out there?  Or people who don't think waxing is a great way to spend an evening?

DPS is offering a new product called Phantom that is called a Permanent Base Glide Treatment for skis and snowboards.  Regular price expected to be $100 to treat one pair of skis or one snowboard.  R&D took about a year.  Testing was done in New Zealand and South America during the summer of 2017.

The Kickstarter campaign met the goal on Day 1 of a 30-day campaign.  Already over $50,000 from almost 500 people.  DPS did an eBlast to their eList and promoted on Facebook.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dpsskis/phantom-permanent-base-glide-treatment-for-skis-an/description

Check out the video and write up then discuss. :-)
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

I'm not a chemist but I did read the page. What wasn't clear to me was whether one can apply the product at home or if it needs to done at shop, equipped with some specialized gear. From the packaging, it looks like a DIY thing.

Clearly not aimed at the racing market, but at average skiers like us. As someone who keeps their skis for a while and isn't fussy about waxing, I would consider it on the next new pair of skis I get, though the price is a bit steep for my taste.
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

One and done, to get better performance than I usually have?  I’d be interested.

So, it permeates the base material, which is good.  Problem I see.....if you need some base repair at any time you would end up with small untreated areas base.  Maybe they’d be small enough to not affect performance?
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

My reading is that you should keep any leftover Phantom to treat any Ptex repairs.

Read somewhere that for racers, could add wax in addition.  The theory is that if the racing wax has worn off during a race then might have better performance because of the Phantom embedded in the base.  As opposed to a relatively bare base once the racing wax is gone.

The FAQ are worth reading if interested to know a little more.
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

From the FAQ:

Q) Can I apply the treatment at home, and can I do it myself?

A) Phantom can be applied at home or by a ski or snowboard shop. The home application process takes about 20 minutes, with 6 hours of additional ‘drying’ time for Phantom to fully penetrate the base.
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Having really gotten into waxing as a race dad as well as my background with ski mfrs im having a hard time understanding how this really could be effective and not Marketing BS

How is anything non toxic and green going to penatrate deeply enough to stay in the base even thru a stone grind?  Hot boxing is the best way to get wax deep.

If this exists and is the real deal why wouldn’t they lisc or sell the rights to one of the big boys and incorporate it into the ptex instead of crowdfunding it.  

Wax also keeps the base from getting dried out and stay flat- does this do that?
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Z wrote
Having really gotten into waxing as a race dad as well as my background with ski mfrs im having a hard time understanding how this really could be effective and not Marketing BS

How is anything non toxic and green going to penatrate deeply enough to stay in the base even thru a stone grind?  Hot boxing is the best way to get wax deep.

If this exists and is the real deal why wouldn’t they lisc or sell the rights to one of the big boys and incorporate it into the ptex instead of crowdfunding it.  

Wax also keeps the base from getting dried out and stay flat- does this do that?
Good questions.  Exactly what I was hoping for from knowledgeable NYSkiBlog folks.

Which "big boys" are you thinking about?  A ski manufacturer?  That would be a DPS competitor.  Certainly not a maker of ski wax.

I wax my own skis every so often, but also let good shops take care of them too.  I have avoided tuning.  Don't know that much about waxes.  What I do know is how DPS has managed to promote and develop their skis.  When I get lucky and catch a powder day at Alta, one of my go to brands for renting powder skis is DPS.  The Alta Ski Shop is one of their major dealers.  Demo skis sell out early, meaning usually by the end of Feb.  I was introduced to DPS skis at an Alta Demo Day a while ago by a friend who is an expert skier who really likes the skis and the company.  He's a successful business analyst and consultant.

DPS has a patent pending on Phantom.  The materials scientists who helped come up with the formulation are with the Univ. of Utah School of Engineering.  Given the level of buzz DPS has created in a day, using Kickstarter is giving them quite a boost from the marketing standpoint of being an environmentally friendly company.  They got endorsements from SKI, Freeskier, and Snowboard Magazine.

Do ski manufacturers usually employ material scientists?

What do you think of this Q&A?

Q) Does Phantom change the appearance of the skis?

A) Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts take its toll. At this point, a stone grind will freshen the appearance to new.
Z Z
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

I just don’t see how this could penatrate the base to the level that a stone grind would refresh it.  When you stone grind a hot boxed ski you need to hot box it again as you are removing part of the base and with it the wax.   It’s a destructive process and there is only so much base thickness.  

DPS is essentially an indie ski brand with a microscopic market share.  They don’t really compete with the likes of Rossi, volkl and atomic.
"It is better to go skiing and think of God, than go to church and think of sport."
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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Z wrote
DPS is essentially an indie ski brand with a microscopic market share.  They don’t really compete with the likes of Rossi, volkl and atomic.
While I agree DPS is not like the major companies, it's not exactly a tiny indie brand either.  Not with 500 dealers worldwide.  In a July 2017 announcement when DPS became an official supplier for PSIA, DPS was described as "the market leader in big mountain, deep powder skiing by establishing  #1 market share in the 100mm+ waist-width category (according to market research firm NPD Group)."

I've watched enough Kickstarter campaigns to know when one is going viral because of work done before the campaign was launched.  Phantom has 600 backers for almost $70,000 after less than 24 hours.  Could easily bring in $1 million and could be as much as $2 million according to Kicktraq.

Articles like the one in the Denver Post made a difference quickly.  Notes that "The application takes time. Treated skis and snowboards need to spend a few hours in the sunshine to get the UV light-activated Phantom to penetrate ski bases. DPS tests show the presence of Phantom remains even after several base grinds. Essentially it becomes part of the skis’ base. So instead of putting Phantom on skis, it goes in skis, DPS says."

http://theknow.denverpost.com/2017/11/01/ski-wax-maintenance-dps-skis-utah/165018/

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Re: Wax once for the life of a ski? New idea from DPS

Well, turns out there is another company is already selling a spray product that also makes use of hydrophobic properties for ski bases.  Look No Wax is a UK company and the product is called Juice (another silly name).  Price point is similar.  My impression is that Look No Wax decided to focus on the short term version, Pocket Juice, instead of pushing Permanent Juice that is meant as a one-time treatment for the life of a pair of skis.  Pocket Juice is $20-25 and comes in a small spray bottle.

I found an obsolete webpage with images at high magnification.  The slick website doesn't have those images. ;-)

http://looknowax.wixsite.com/juice/the-science

https://looknowax.com

"JUICE Permanent is a molecular treatment that uses nano-sized particles to alter and enhance the hydrophobic (water-repellent) properties of materials used to make skis and snowboards. At the same time, the base material becomes more resistant to damage such as small scratches and the dreaded "P-Tex hairs" that appear as base materials degrade (not just p-tex but all other manufacturers of UHMWPE base materials, either extruded or sintered). This allows the already-enhanced performance to be maintained."

JD Prince appears to have a patent for his (Derek Prince) version of a glide treatment: "A ski (10) including a base layer (12) made from permeable material, wherein the base layer (12) is treated with a composition comprising at least one chemical component to confer hydrophobicity with a water contact angle of greater than 120° to the base layer (2) and a carrier fluid for the chemical component, the composition permeating the material of the base layer (12) and modified the material to be hydrophobic throughout its volume."

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2016042323A1?cl=en

https://youtu.be/9gIQKKwBDPw
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