APA Hears about New Ways to Manage Ski Trails

Email from Ron this am:

October 22, 2015
By SHAUN KITTLE - Outdoors Writer (skittle@adirondackdailyenterprise.com) , Lake Placid News
         
RAY BROOK - The state Adirondack Park Agency was recently introduced to a proposed set of guidelines to regulate the planning and construction of backcountry ski trails.

State Department of Environmental Conservation Forester Eric Kasza told the APA board the draft plan isn't finished and therefore hasn't been submitted, but he said that would happen soon. In the meantime, he filled them in on some of the things that have been discussed.

Kasza said the popularity of the region's numerous cross-country ski trails speaks to their value in drawing people to the area, but he suggested taking a quality over quantity approach when planning future trails. He said new trails should provide skiers with opportunities not found on foot trails.

http://www.lakeplacidnews.com/page/content.detail/id/524220/APA-hears-about-possible-new-ways-to-manage-ski-trails.html

Holy shit!  I just pissed myself a little...

This is great news!  About freakin' time NY!

BTW if you haven't skied the new ski trail in Newcomb, I'll say, it's awesome.

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2015/01/dec-opens-ski-trail-along-upper-hudson.html

Just to be clear, the proposed guidelines that are the subject of the article in the Lake Placid News distinguish between "nordic" ski trails (example: the route in to Camp Santanoni) and "backcountry" ski trails (example: Avalanche Pass). Those guidelines are just proposed.  They haven't been finalized and adopted by the APA yet.

Also, while the proposed guidelines represent progress, the Adirondack Powder Skier Association's proposal to develop guidelines for ski routes within "naturally occurring openings in mature forest" is a separate proposal and is not the subject of the newspaper article above.  That's the proposal that you'll really want to get excited over.

Edit - BTW Mike, thanks for the reminder that I really need to check out that new route in Newcomb along the Hudson River this winter, it looks very cool.

I'm excited over all of it.  I'm particularly excited because the DEC is proposing it.  That's generally a step in the right direction.

Yes I realize it's only a proposal now... but the DEC is building ski trails as noted above.  Granted it's mostly an old logging Rd and some old 4 wheeler trails (those make a good width nordic trail actually)... but there is hope.

I specifically like the idea of trying to maintain specific ski only trails (snowshoe ruts are a drag) and widening steep slopes to 12'.  I'm not thinking it would be a good idea to cut 12' wide trails all over mountains and turn the wilderness and wild forest into ski slopes, but I think it could make for some fun BC trail skiing if done in the right areas.

As far as the maintained glades:  I'm fine with that too but I think that will really be a stretch because it's not a defined trail like a these others would be.  It will take some work to get there I think.

Santanoni is a pretty mild ski but most truck trails would fit into this category.  They'd all meed the 10' width regulation I believe.  I don't know that you could keep snowshoes off but I'd like to hear what they have to say.

Although I'll ski both, I'm more interested in the 'backcountry' ski trails.  I'm guessing this would be more along the lines of the Jackrabbit and this new Hudson trail, and up in difficulty but with proper room on the steeper stuff to make turns.

Also you can never be too sure about these things because they can be biased, but this poll over at the ADK forum kind of tells me that the DEC is proposing the right thing:

http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?p=238132#post238132

Maybe if this poll was give here or at a ski forum where predominately dh skiers post, it might be another way.  But to the general person interested in visiting the Adirondacks it seems like BC Nordic a pretty popular form of recreation.

I say start the poll. Would be cool to see how many are lift slaves.

For the past 3 1/2 years the  Adirondack Powder Skier Association has been advocating for Improved Responsible Low Impact Access for BackCountry Skiers and SnowBoarders to NY State Forest Preserve Lands .
Last Winter a working group made up of representatives from the APSA, DEC, APA, BETA/ADK Ski Touring Council, Adirondack Mountain Club, Adirondack Wild, Protect The Adirondacks, and the  Adirondack Council held BC Sking Field Trips and Round Table Meetings run by representatives of the DEC and APA over the course of 5 months. The group developed guidelines for Nordic and BackCountry Ski Trails as well as Open Woods Ski Routes.

Those guidelines were presented to a joint meeting of top level staff from the DEC,APA, and the Attorney Generals Office in early July. Numerous internal meetings between those 3 State Agencies followed.

At the October APA Meeting  ( as the article states) the APA Commisioners were given a presentation on Back Country and Nordic Ski Trails  as well as on the history and evolution of Ski and Snowboard equipment by APA State Lands Planner Kevin Prickett and DEC Forester Eric Kasca. At the end of their presentation some APA Commissioners asked why the Open Woods Ski Routes were not included in the presentation.

As stated in the article Eric said that alittle more work had to be done on the Open Woods Ski Route proposal as there are some discussions still ongoing between the agencies but that this proposal would also move forward in the near future.

Also , as Eric stated in the article the focus is going to be on quality as opposed to quantity  when it comes to Nordic Ski Trails, Backcountry Ski Trails, and Open Woods Ski Routes. Each individual Ski Proposal will be scrutinized through a public Unit Mangement Planning Process . Only after this very transparent and rigorous public process will a facility be managed for Improved Responsible Quiet Low Impact Human Powered Skiing and SnowBoarding Access to NY State Forest Preseve Land.

The APSA thanks the APA, DEC, Attorney Generals Office, Governor Andrew Cuomo's Office, Senator Betty Littles Office, Assemblyman Dan Stecs Office, the  Adirondack Mountain Club, BETA/Adirondack Ski Touring Council, Protect the Adirondacks, Adirondack Wild, the Adirondack Council, and the Wildlife Conservation Society for their personal and staff time devoted to our initiatives.

Hopefully, the Nordic and BackCountry Ski Trail Document will be presented to the APA Commisioners at the November APA Meeting in  Raybrook and will be followed shortly by the accompanying Open Woods Ski Route Document.

Thanks for all the Support from the NY Ski Blog!

Ron Konowitz
President, Adirondack Powder Skier Association Inc.

 I forgot to mention that in addition to Albany Central Office DEC Forester Eric Kasza, DEC Region 5 Forester Tate Connor helped develop and spearhead the proposed guidelines along with APA Planner Kevin Prickett. Many thanks to countless folks who lent their time, expertise,advice, and support.
Ron Kon

Welcome Ron Kon.

What does quiet mean?

No yodeling, loud singing or Yahooing

tjf1967 wrote

What does quiet mean?

Means you can't go

So... a serious question?

Is the APSA leading the way for the Backcountry and Nordic trails as well?  I was under the impression, mainly from stuff I had read from Phil Brown that it was mainly the 'Open Woods' concept that was being proposed by ASPA.  It seems the other two would have more likely been led by the ADK ski touring council.

I want to support anyway I can.

Also, I'd recommend putting this info up on the ADK forum.  Lots of people there will be interested in these proposals.

Thanks,
Mike

MikeK wrote

Also, I'd recommend putting this info up on the ADK forum.  Lots of people there will be interested in these proposals.

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, they whine and cry about anything being done for any other purpose besides their eroded trails to the peaks

skimore wrote

MikeK wrote

Also, I'd recommend putting this info up on the ADK forum.  Lots of people there will be interested in these proposals.

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, they whine and cry about anything being done for any other purpose besides their eroded trails to the peaks

Some do, yes... but still lots of BC skiers check there.  I'm pretty sure APSA is well known, I've known for about a year, but I've been unclear on the general intents here.  I think I need to support them a little more... seems like their goals are exactly inline with mine.

Cool to see Ron Kon in a thread here!

The Adirondack Powder Skier Association has been working with all the stakeholders for the last 3 1/2 years to improve low impact skiing and snowboarding access to NY State Forest Preserve Lands. This includes Nordic Ski Trails, Back Country Ski Trails, and Open Woods Ski Routes.
The Adirondack Powder Skier Initiative has brought all the stakeholders to the table. We graciously thank all of them for attending to our concerns and giving their time, expertise, and support. These Standards and Guidance Documents for Nordic Ski Trails, BackCountry Ski Trails, and Open Woods Ski Routes which are going to be presented to the APA Commisioners are a group effort.

Thanks Ron.  I joined APSA based on this intel.

Keep us informed!

People next door seem to get it. Too bad the NYS can't grasp the concept

http://www.tetongravity.com/video/ski/video-exclusive-bottomless-vermont-powder

Yesterday I had business in two ski shops, one in Glens Falls, the other in Saratoga.  I chatted with the staff in both places, specifically about opportunities for AT skiing.   In general the response was "people are really getting into that, there are some great places in Vermont and Massachusetts."  I think this shows how far behind we are here in NY state.  We arguably have some of the best terrain in the Northeast, but the least opportunities to pursue this healthy sport.  A great example is Gore: please tell me why it does not have an upphill policy?  Safety doesn't cut it, it is not dangerous to shuffle uphill at 2 miles an hour.  If the Mountain can construct kickers for teenagers to do flips on, the safety of ATing shouldnt even come up!  I for one am looking forward to the efforts of AFSA to obtain permission to cut more ski trails, but Id like to ask Mike Pratt to consider designating an AT route to the saddle instead of chainsawing another glade full of hits for the kids.  (Which actually looks like a really cool trail from what we saw last week.)