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Alternative Energy: Viable?

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ml242

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Milo, the gov screws everything up. Wanna buy a 60s corvair Btw?

campgottagopee

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

ml242 wrote

Wanna buy a 60s corvair Btw?

Holy flashback --- college buddy of mine had a corvair, whenever that car started we had a blast

campgottagopee

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by Harvey

Harvey wrote

Hope you mean this thread. I learned a lot MM.

Agree

PeeTex

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

I had a '64 convert able, had a minor collision in a parking lot and the front end wrinkled like a cheap suite

Don't ski the trees, ski the spaces between the trees.

Milo Maltbie

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by campgottagopee

campgottagopee wrote

ml242 wrote

Wanna buy a 60s corvair Btw?

Holy flashback --- college buddy of mine had a corvair, whenever that car started we had a blast

I had one in college for a while. I spun it out one rainy morning on Grand Central Parkway. That car was the sum of all the worst automotive ideas ever from Detroit and Germany.
where did you go to college?

MM

"Everywhere I turn, here I am." Susan Tedeschi

Milo Maltbie

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by ml242

ml242 wrote

Milo, the gov screws everything up. Wanna buy a 60s corvair Btw?

Actually, everybody screws something up every day, but it only pisses you off more when it's the government. The post office delivers billions of pieces of mail for cheap prices, but if they miss one letter, they screw everything up.

MM

"Everywhere I turn, here I am." Susan Tedeschi

campgottagopee

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by Milo Maltbie

Milo Maltbie wrote

where did you go to college?

MM

Small school out in western NY

Milo Maltbie wrote

I had one in college for a while. I spun it out one rainy morning on Grand Central Parkway. That car was the sum of all the worst automotive ideas ever from Detroit and Germany.

Yep, I can't think of a worse debacle in the automotive industry. Well, maybe all these wannaB electric "green" cars now_A_days

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

another interesting article on new energy sources

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1386&doc_id=278491&cid=nl.dn14.20150901&dfpPParams=ind_186,industry_auto,industry_alt,industry_consumer,industry_machinery,industry_medical,kw_cloud-computing,kw_36,aid_278491&dfpLayout=blog

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time

ScottyJack

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by PeeTex

PeeTex wrote

OK - lets address these one at a time:

ml242 wrote

But no one tallies the energy and resources in costs to push crude halfway around the world for processing and distribution, not to mention the fact that any other modern car is expensive in precious metals, mining, shipping, and energy as well. It's like the "traditional" one gets a pass as if it's free, but the smell of a "green" initiative gets excoriated.

The cost to move crude via tanker is very low/almost negligible on a cost per gallon basis. However I do have a big beef with the shipping business on emissions, did you know that as soon as a big ship (whether it's a freighter, tanker or cruise ship) gets outside of territorial waters they burn low cost high sulfur fuels - it's a travesty. AN electric vehicle has more carbon footprint than a standard gas powered vehicle because of the magnetic s and copper in the drive system and the Batteries which conventional cars don't need. Lithium is not very recyclable, the price of the raw material has tripled in the last 10 years and 70% of the worlds reserves are controlled by South America. This does not bode well for the electric car or Li-Ion battery market. Your average gas powered car is more recyclable and uses less energy to produce and the current fleet uses less energy to operate, not zero but less. In my mind traditional methods don't get a pass and neither do those so called green technologies, each get scrutinized and the best should be chosen. You know who wants EVs, those companies that make and sell generation and distribution equipment, the energy companies don't care so much because they know in the long run it ain't a bad deal for them. Just like solar - you get 1 gallon for every 2 you put in. You have been snookered.

ScottyJack wrote

These guys keep dissing the subsidies for solar, completely ignoring the fact that the fossil fuel industry is subsidized too!!

it cost too much. It cost too much! Without the subsidize it wont be cost effective or sustainable. Well either would the fossil fuel industry!!!

Subsidies and tax incentives are fine if they are used in smart ways. The issues I have with the current programs are that they are really not trying to address the environmental issues but are rather politically driven. You may think I am a die hard conservative, not so, the greenest thing we can do is fund planned parenthood and birth control to the hilt. As an individual, don't have a big family and homosexuality is the greenest thing going.

Milo Maltbie wrote

The US electric system was originally built with federal bonds, and the whole thing was subsidized until they had enough customers to pay the bills. It is not possible to start a capital intensive industry like that without subsidies, and it's not possible to transform a working system into something much greener without subsidies. The US and NY in particular has made a political commitment to take carbon out of the electric system, and that is going to require subsidies until the system is rebuilt in a way that allows solar and other clean sources to be used reliably. If you don't think carbon emissions are a problem, you won't like the subsidies, but most of the world agrees that carbon needs to be reduced.

MM

Never said carbon emissions were not a problem, they are one of many problems. Unfortunately solar panels & EVs are not the answer. If my daily driver was an EV I would use it during the day and charge it at night. When does solar produce energy? At least wind will generate at night when they are not down for repairs. At least Hydro runs 24-7 and Nuks are the best if you can stand the risk. The fact that an EV uses almost twice as much energy as a conventional car seems lost on you and the fact that Solar generation time, not to mention the energy & pollution cost to build go right over your head.
i
Let's invest wisely, not politically. Research in biology to create algae and bacteria that will rapidly pump down CO2 and make fuels using natural processes. Research in quantum physics and sub-micron structures that will be used to make solar panels that are highly efficient as opposed to the ones we have today, Research in low level radioactive batteries that will convert all those millions of gallons of radioactive waste into power producers and hundreds of other ideas that survive the first level "back of the napkin" sanity checks, not the crap that someone who could use their grade school education (well maybe not US grade schools) could debunk in 10 nanoseconds. Stop buying into all the crap the capitalist, big companies and big government has fed you and go back to basics, simple, non-sexy low tech solutions are all around us. It's OK to burn gas or liquid fuels, particularly if they were generated from the waste of the fuels we have already burned (like poop and CO2) - but who wants to invest in poop. Liquid fuels are the best energy storage mechanism we know of, light weight and energy dense.

The problem with most of the so called ecologists and greenies is that they want their cake and eat it too. They drive that Hybrid SUV or EV, have the expensive super light kayak, Carbon fiber or TI bike and drive up from NJ to the Adirondaks for the weekends and ride lifts all day on their season passes and think they are so green - not. If my car is not emitting CO2 it must be green - right? The only green car is the one that was destined for the land fill, sits in the back 40 and never gets driven.

Whoa! I totally share your view on birth control! Been saying that for decades!! Lots of smart stuff here. I need to read more about these ideas.

I ride with Crazy Horse!

ScottyJack

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by Milo Maltbie

Milo Maltbie wrote

This is the last post here for me. I'm bored with the combination of ignorance and crankiness you display.

MM

NO NO!! Post more, post more! Super smart stuff. Do not stop please.

I ride with Crazy Horse!

Snowballs

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Banned User

In reply to this post by ScottyJack

ml242 wrote

But no one tallies the energy and resources in costs to push crude halfway around the world for processing and distribution, not to mention the fact that any other modern car is expensive in precious metals, mining, shipping, and energy as well. It's like the "traditional" one gets a pass as if it's free, but the smell of a "green" initiative gets excoriated.

Right you are !

So, here's this real world demonstration of viability.....

http://news.yahoo.com/chart-shows-why-solar-powered-future-arrived-192922860.html

" The U.S. only produces about 1 percent of its electricity from solar, but certain states now obtain a significant amount of energy from the sun. More than half of the nation’s electricity from solar power plants, for instance, is produced in California. At certain times in June, solar generated 50 percent of the electricity flowing into the state’s power grid, according to state officials. "

http://news.yahoo.com/help-small-island-states-ditch-diesel-cheaper-cleaner-094221434.html

It's coming. As soon as home batteries click, solar will boom.

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

battery manufacturing is a far cry from being green friendly

You guys like like this green technology crap just falls from the sky but the reality is the stuff is dirty as heck to make and water and energy intensive. The net net after all that takes away from the benefit you are looking for.

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time

Snowballs

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Banned User

Coach Z wrote

You guys like like The net net

Nyet Nyet CZ.... and an OMG

.....

Have you ever been around oil drilling/production ? It has PLENTY of nasty stuff and in very huge volumes. Plus all the other pollution it makes as it's transported, refined, transported, consumed. Oi vey !

As ML pointed out, this is passed over for whatever reasons. It is likely a far greater amount of pollution than green's.

Saving some of the energy used excavating then transporting fossil fuel around globally will alone be a big $$$ saver and pollution reducer.

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

I Fing hate the Apple spell check functionality especially when I post from my iphone

I agree transporting oil across oceans is crazy when we could be producing it here in North America. More use of Nat Gas which Is much easier and cheaper to transport and burns cleaner should be a priority. All large tucks and buses should be over time moved to Nat Gas reducing emissions. The engine technology exists with reasonable payback all that needs to done is build out a fueling network. This is where govt could have a positive role by encouraging the transition via tax law to mandating it if that doesn't work. Obama won't do this because he is beholden to the Greens and it doesn't fit his narrative that all fossil fuels are bad.

Back to my point that the behind the scenes of green energy is really not very green. You would not want to live next to a battery plant. It's a nasty heavy industry that uses nasty chemicals and emits bad stuff. Just like you would not want to live near a wind farm.

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time

Adk Jeff

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Coach Z wrote

IBack to my point that the behind the scenes of green energy is really not very green. You would not want to live next to a battery plant. It's a nasty heavy industry that uses nasty chemicals and emits bad stuff. Just like you would not want to live near a wind farm.

I'm not understanding this logic. Battery factories emit bad stuff. So what? Petroleum refineries do too. Yet one technology (solar) allows energy to be produced without contributing to global warming, whereas the other technology (burning fossil fuels) produces global warming. Aren't we still better off (from a global warming perspective) by displacing fossil fuels with solar, even if solar is not perfectly pure and completely green?

Coach Z wrote

You guys like like this green technology crap just falls from the sky but the reality is the stuff is dirty as heck to make and water and energy intensive. The net net after all that takes away from the benefit you are looking for.

I'm also not understanding this logic. Yes, solar is not "free" from an environmental perspective. Nothing is. But isn't it better than fossil fuels? In other words, isn't the global warming that is generated from the manufacturing of solar infrastructure (panels, batteries etc) LESS than the global warming that is generated from the producing, transporting, refining and burning the amount of fossil fuel it would take to produce the same quantity of energy produced by the solar panel over the solar panel's 20-year (or whatever) lifespan?

PeeTex

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Adk Jeff wrote

I'm not understanding this logic. Battery factories emit bad stuff. So what? Petroleum refineries do too. Yet one technology (solar) allows energy to be produced without contributing to global warming, whereas the other technology (burning fossil fuels) produces global warming. Aren't we still better off (from a global warming perspective) by displacing fossil fuels with solar, even if solar is not perfectly pure and completely green?

This is simply not true. An incredible amount of fossil fuels were used to build that solar panel, mine the material, refine the bulk silicon to an incredibly high purity level. Yes, once it is installed it can then produce electricity without emitting CO2 or other green house gases but getting to that point - one hell of a lot was produced.

Adk Jeff wrote

I'm also not understanding this logic. Yes, solar is not "free" from an environmental perspective. Nothing is. But isn't it better than fossil fuels? In other words, isn't the global warming that is generated from the manufacturing of solar infrastructure (panels, batteries etc) LESS than the global warming that is generated from the producing, transporting, refining and burning the amount of fossil fuel it would take to produce the same quantity of energy produced by the solar panel over the solar panel's 20-year (or whatever) lifespan?

The simple answer is, no.
Jeff - I have been laying out the facts in this thread time and time again, not conjecture but facts and you still guzzle the cool aid. Please read this article in the Solar Industry Manufacturing trade magazine if you don't believe us:
http://www.solarindustrymag.com/issues/SI1309/FEAT_05_Hazardous_Materials_Used_In_Silicon_PV_Cell_Production_A_Primer.html
(this isn't some right wing mumbo jumbo - this is from the industry itself!)

And what you aren't seeing is the huge disposal problem that isn't even baked into the costs yet. Solar simply just isn't there yet. What we have today is creating a bigger pollution problem both now and in the future than what it is replacing and it's being produced in countries that don't give a rats ass about pollution.

Don't ski the trees, ski the spaces between the trees.

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

This post was updated on .

100% agree with PTex. He just explains it better than me.

I'm in the electric motor biz and we rely on a mineral called neodymium. It is part of a family of minerals called rare earths. Everything from A&D to iPhones to cars use rare earths. So called green technology would not work with out them and solar panels, batteries, wind turbines are chocked to the brim of theses minerals.

Problem is they are very costly to produce without a huge environmental impact. what has happened is China has cornered the market on them but at insane negative impact. There is plenty of the mineral in the U.S. and Australia but they cannot compete price wise so your Chinese made solar panel (and almost all of them are made there) is not even close to being green after all the mfr impact.

Watch this 60 mins piece on this issue

http://youtu.be/N1HiX0HiAuo

Harv I could not get this to embed so maybe you can fix it

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time

Adk Jeff

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Pee & Z,
Yeah, I know you guys posted a bunch of stuff earlier, but my eyes glazed over and I was too lazy to read & digest those links (translation: I discounted those links since you are both right-wing nut jobs).

Guess I gotta do my homework.

I just find it difficult to believe that more energy goes into producing panels than energy produced by the panels over their life.

Coach, yeah I know about rare earths and China. But isn't that a market / economics problem? In other words, we need China and other countries to produce these in an environmentally responsible way. That adds cost. But so what? Think about all of the environmental costs that aren't included in the price of a gallon of gas. That issue alone shouldn't make solar non-viable. Manufacture panels in an environmentally responsible manner, make that part of the cost, and consumers will just have to buy one less bag of potato chips or one less cell phone. Govt subsidies (funded by taxes on fossil fuels to account for the environmental costs associated with producing & consuming those) could be used to reduce the cost to consumers.

We just have to do something aggressive NOW to reverse the tide of climate change. I want my kids to have winters.

Thacheronix

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

Yea what is it you conservatives conserve anyway

Re: Alternative Energy: Viable?

In reply to this post by Adk Jeff

You guys want to feel good about solar or wind but the reality sucks that making these things is way worse than traditional energy. You either ignore the facts and keep drinking the cool aid or say to yourself hey the mess they are making in China doesn't impact me.

You can't expect China to fix or regulate it as that just isn't going to happen. Nor can you say let's just use the U.S. Source as they only make a small amount of the worlds neo and other rare earths and that source is going mostly to defense applications where price is not an issue. The price difference is huge and that will take the payback from questionable to never. Plus the panel makers are all in Chna so they are not going to be allowed to import cleanly made rare earths.

It's an inconvenient truth but a fact none the less - green energy is really brown if not blacker than oil. We are awash in cheap and much cleaner burning Nat Gas. That is where more focus needs to be put.

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time

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