Alterra interested in Jay, VR is not

Sounds like Alterra is considering the possibility of buying Jay.  Vail Resorts hasn't visited.  A few other companies have visited  in 2019, including Pacific Group.  VT Digger found news tidbits in meeting minutes of a Zoning Board meeting not directly related to a potential sale.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/05/vail-showing-no-interest-but-competitors-eye-jay-peak-as-sale-process-presses-on/

What's better . . . adding Jay to Ikon or having Jay as an independent?

What's better is whatever option allows Jay to continue to kick ass. It'd be nice if Burke got some (winter) love, too.

I'd also like for whatever company buys Jay to keep the management in place, especially friend of NYSkiBlog Steve W.

^ What he said.

From what I can tell, Alterra, Pacific Group, and Snow Operating are the three companies with the most experience owning and/or operating a ski resort.  FoSun is a major company based in China that bought ClubMed in 2010.  AWH is actually Spire Hospitality, which handles hotels.

Spire owns High Peaks and the Lake House in Lake Placid.  Based on their experience in Lake Placid, they bought Top Notch at Stowe in Jan 2019.  I wonder if Alterra and AWH are working together.  AWH became interested in Top Notch after VR bought Stowe.  Top Notch is halfway between the Stowe's town center and the base of the lifts.

https://www.spirehotels.com/news/2019/01/31/awh-partners-purchases-renowned,-100-acre-topnotch-resort-and-spa-in-stowe,-vermont/

Snow Operating could well be working with any of the other companies as a consultant.  They have their hands full operating Mountain Creek and getting Big SNOW started at American Dream.

marznc wrote

Snow Operating could well be working with any of the other companies as a consultant.  They have their hands full operating Mountain Creek and getting Big SNOW started at American Dream.

Mountain Creek and an indoor snow center (if it ever gets completed) are so very different than Jay Peak...in every way from a business perspective and a skiing perspective.

Marcski wrote

marznc wrote

Snow Operating could well be working with any of the other companies as a consultant.  They have their hands full operating Mountain Creek and getting Big SNOW started at American Dream.

Mountain Creek and an indoor snow center (if it ever gets completed) are so very different than Jay Peak...in every way from a business perspective and a skiing perspective.

The primary business of Snow Operating as a consulting company is focused on beginners or first-time guests who are renting gear.  They've been working with a wide range of ski areas/resorts from tiny Cataloochee to destination resorts like Killington or Aspen.  I would expect them to have more than enough experience to help evaluate how the ski school flow currently works at Jay.

I haven't been to Jay, but the remoteness of the location reminds me of Snowshoe in WV.  Snowshoe was one of Snow Operating's first clients.

Do most of the people skiing Jay stay on resort for 3+ days?  Or is there a large percentage who do day trips on weekends?

No idea how to measure most.  But Jay is a day ski for Montreal, Burlington and surrounding environs right?

Harvey wrote

No idea how to measure most.  But Jay is a day ski for Montreal, Burlington and surrounding environs right?

Sure is. Jay is a 1.5 hour drive from Montreal (population 1.78 million in 2017) and many Montrealers have homes in the NEK for the express purpose of skiing at Jay. The Burlington crown would get a little more spread out between Stowe, Smuggs and less likely at Jay.

Sick Bird Rider wrote

Harvey wrote

No idea how to measure most.  But Jay is a day ski for Montreal, Burlington and surrounding environs right?

Sure is. Jay is a 1.5 hour drive from Montreal (population 1.78 million in 2017) and many Montrealers have homes in the NEK for the express purpose of skiing at Jay. The Burlington crown would get a little more spread out between Stowe, Smuggs and less likely at Jay.

With Tremblant already on Ikon, adding Jay would certainly seem to be a good way to entice more Montreal folks to buy Ikon instead of a local Tremblant season pass.  Full Epic includes RCR mountains in Canada and W-B, so can be tempting for eastern Canadians who don't want to travel in the U.S.

When my daughter and I did a college Admissions visit at UVM last year, there was plenty of talk about buses to the nearby mountains for skiing but Jay wasn't mentioned.

Has the weak Canadian dollar made any difference in the number of Canadians in Lake Placid or Jay?  I haven't been up in Lake Placid during the winter for a few years.

marznc wrote

When my daughter and I did a college Admissions visit at UVM last year, there was plenty of talk about buses to the nearby mountains for skiing but Jay wasn't mentioned.

That isn't too surprising. Bolton has night skiing and a park, Smuggs is the closest big mountain, Stowe has the most variety, and the Mad River valley is only an hour away. Jay is further from Burlington than all of those areas and is one of the worst mountains around for your typical intermediate average skier. I talk to a lot more Montrealers than UVM students while riding the lifts. I'm doubtful that a Jay purchaser would give much consideration to Burlington. It is a big city as far as Vermont goes but not a metro area. Montreal has 4M people in its greater metro area, much of it less than two hours away from Jay.

riverc0il wrote

marznc wrote

When my daughter and I did a college Admissions visit at UVM last year, there was plenty of talk about buses to the nearby mountains for skiing but Jay wasn't mentioned.

That isn't too surprising. Bolton has night skiing and a park, Smuggs is the closest big mountain, Stowe has the most variety, and the Mad River valley is only an hour away. Jay is further from Burlington than all of those areas and is one of the worst mountains around for your typical intermediate average skier. I talk to a lot more Montrealers than UVM students while riding the lifts. I'm doubtful that a Jay purchaser would give much consideration to Burlington. It is a big city as far as Vermont goes but not a metro area. Montreal has 4M people in its greater metro area, much of it less than two hours away from Jay.

Makes sense.  Not sure the student doing the Admissions tour was a skier/boarder.  Even if they were, already knew my daughter was from NC and probably wouldn't have guessed she was an advanced skier as a tween.  Nearby mountains was a plus for UVM, but staying in-state in NC where it's a lot warmer during the winter won out.  She has clear memories of how cold in gets in the Adirondacks.  She'll get in a little skiing at our home mountain during longer college winter break at least. :-)

My northeast ski safaris in Vermont have included Stratton, Killington, Smuggs, Stowe, MGR, and Sugarbush.  Driving all the way up to Jay didn't seem worth the effort.

I've read far more comments online about Jay from people who live in Boston or NYC than folks in Vermont.

Does anybody have any idea how many tickets Jay sells in a typical year and how they compare to Stowe, Smuggs and maybe Sugarbush? Or how often they fill their hotel?

Just for fun I looked around for what someone would find on the Internet if interested in skiing near Montreal.  Found a blog entry from 2013 with a Top Ten list.  The blogger seems to write for college students or young adults who might not have a car.  Ideal terrain seemed to be a combination of trees and steeps with mellow terrain for non-skiing or beginner/intermediate relatives or friends.  Bromont night skiing was #1.  Jay was #2 and Whiteface was #4.  Tremblant wasn't even mentioned.

https://www.mtlblog.com/news/top-10-ski-resorts-near-montreal

For the 2018-19 season, there is a blog entry about bus options for skiing from Montreal.  Tremblant is mentioned first.  Nothing to Jay but possible to get to Burlington for under $25.

https://www.mtlblog.com/news/montreal/these-5-shuttles-from-montreal-will-bring-you-to-the-best-ski-hills-in-quebec

marznc wrote

Has the weak Canadian dollar made any difference in the number of Canadians in Lake Placid or Jay?  I haven't been up in Lake Placid during the winter for a few years.

Yes, it does.  Back when the CAD was at par, there were a lot more destination folks from the greater Toronto area (7+ hour drive).  I don't think there's much difference with visitors from Quebec or the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence.  Not a huge % of WF business, I don't think.

Montreal is a solid 2 hours to Whiteface, plus you have to wait at the I-87 border.  There are lots of solid ski areas within 2 hours of Montreal.  Plus Jay offers CAD at par for lift tickets and the border crossings aren't bad.  I don't know that WF wants to do the discounted exchange-at-par as that would amount to NYers paying more to ski at a place that is also supported by their tax dollars....double whammy.

Jay used to get lots of day trips via bus.  A really busy day in the late '80's was 75+ motor coaches.

D.B. Cooper wrote

marznc wrote

Has the weak Canadian dollar made any difference in the number of Canadians in Lake Placid or Jay?  I haven't been up in Lake Placid during the winter for a few years.

Yes, it does.  Back when the CAD was at par, there were a lot more destination folks from the greater Toronto area (7+ hour drive).  I don't think there's much difference with visitors from Quebec or the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence.  Not a huge % of WF business, I don't think.

Montreal is a solid 2 hours to Whiteface, plus you have to wait at the I-87 border.  There are lots of solid ski areas within 2 hours of Montreal.  Plus Jay offers CAD at par for lift tickets and the border crossings aren't bad.  I don't know that WF wants to do the discounted exchange-at-par as that would amount to NYers paying more to ski at a place that is also supported by their tax dollars....double whammy.

Jay used to get lots of day trips via bus.  A really busy day in the late '80's was 75+ motor coaches.

I think all that is about right.  Montreal is not really a market for WF or northern Vermont. Jay is too remote from everywhere to be a major player, and it only gets Canadian business by taking loonies at par.  That's usually been a pretty steep discount. That's why Alterra and VR haven't grabbed it yet.

When Jay first opened it's main business was week long ski school school programs. They advertised heavily in NYC and probably Boston and Montreal as well. Stowe had a pretty good ski week crowd back then as well. Climate change and cheap air fares wrecked all that. To survive in the Northeast now, you gotta be close enough for weekend and day trips.

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

When Jay first opened it's main business was week long ski school school programs. They advertised heavily in NYC and probably Boston and Montreal as well. Stowe had a pretty good ski week crowd back then as well. Climate change and cheap air fares wrecked all that. To survive in the Northeast now, you gotta be close enough for weekend and day trips.

mm

Ah, didn't know that Jay had week-long lesson programs.  What was the timing of those going away and the addition of the gondola?

The only way that Taos survived it's early years was because of Taos Ski Weeks.  Lots of midwest and east coast ski clubs fill up the Snakedance Condos from Jan-Feb, then Texas spring break vacationers show up in March.  In the late 1950s and 1960s, skiers could take an overnight train direct from Chicago or LA to Taos.  It was called the "Learn-To-Ski-Better-Weeks" in an ad in Skiing Magazine in 1968.  Lots of return guests mid-season who have been going the same week annually for 10, or even 20 years.

Wonder how aware Alterra folks are of how many people checked out the ORDA mountains because they were part of the MAX Pass for the final season.  Presumably the same would've happened at Jay if it had been on the MAX Pass at any point.  After all, Alterra bought Intrawest so should have some experienced people to draw on.

I disagree that Montreal is not a major market for WF and Lake Placid tourism markets

I’d say around 15-20% comes from Canada judging by license plates and talking with people.  My son works at A&W and 40% of their biz is Canadian.  Canadians love the Daks in the summer.  WF gets a bunch of buses from Montreal on weekends.

What Z said.  Adirondacks are a big destination both for Ottawa and Montreal.  Montreal's Alpine Club Canada has a house on Styles Brook Rd in Keene.

Peter Minde wrote

What Z said.  Adirondacks are a big destination both for Ottawa and Montreal.  Montreal's Alpine Club Canada has a house on Styles Brook Rd in Keene.

From what I can tell from the ACC info about the Keene cabin and the type of activities, seems more like people who do cross-country or backcountry skiing than those who would buy Ikon/Epic for a ski resort vacation.  The winter list for Keene includes: Track Skiing, Ski Touring, and Ice Climbing.  No mention of downhill skiing at all.  Can certainly understand why it would be popular during the "green season."

https://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/web/ACCMember/Huts/Keene_Farm.aspx

Would families in Ottawa really want to drive all the way to Jay for the tram and the waterpark during the winter, instead of going to Tremblant or Mt. Ste. Anne?  Epic has RCR mountains (Full or 4-7 Epic Day Pass) and W-B.  If Jay were added, would Ikon compete well with that list for Canadians?

Z wrote

I disagree that Montreal is not a major market for WF and Lake Placid tourism markets

Right....I was talking about skiing only.