Bark Eater Trail Alliance BETA!

I'm surprised you actually read it

Here's one from the 16/17 season

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/outdoors/2016/12/10_things_ny_snowmobilers_should_know_for_the_2016-17_season.html

"The reason is that snowmobiling is big business in New York, conservatively generating some $868 million annually for the state's economy, according to Roseanne Warner, of Canestota, who is president of the New York State Snowmobile Association."

Don't be a hater

ScottyJack wrote

We’ve also been lobbying ORDA since 2008 to build flow trails from Facelift down so WF could serve as our DH option.  We are getting closer with them.

I heard a proper flow trail at WF would carry a price tag of about $250k.  That’s a hell of a nut!  How would such a trail effect the contours of the ski terrain?

Im not a hater.  I just dont believe Voodoo economics.  

We’re thinking 500k for three but they need to shell out like 25k to a Gravity Logic to conduct an operational accessment to get solid plan and budget numbers

Features and berms could mostly be built in the woods between ski trails and certainly possible to build tabletops in the designated park trails which could save on snowmaking to build winter features.

Kmart went all in a couple years ago.  600k is what we are hearing they spent.  Their rider numbers jumped from 2000 a season to 23,000 and growing.  Return on investment projection was shread in half the time anticipated  

ScottyJack wrote

   I just dont believe Voodoo economics.

I thought you liked ORDA

BAZINGA!!

JTG4eva! wrote

ScottyJack wrote

We’ve also been lobbying ORDA since 2008 to build flow trails from Facelift down so WF could serve as our DH option.  We are getting closer with them.

I heard a proper flow trail at WF would carry a price tag of about $250k.  That’s a hell of a nut!  How would such a trail effect the contours of the ski terrain?

at Mt Creek almost all of the MTB trails are built in the woods or under and around the lifts..

ScottyJack wrote

Good feedback.  We, Beta, are fully on board with what ur saying.  Our destignation is not just Wilmington but Wilmington, LP and SL plus Etown.  We have crews in all these towns and our goal has always been to become a destignation by building the density needed incorporating all our towns

Yup - I'm aware of the others, just referring to Wilmington as the hub because that's where WF is.  Kind of like referring to Whistler when really there is a lot more in the surrounding areas.

ScottyJack wrote

We’ve also been lobbying ORDA since 2008 to build flow trails from Facelift down so WF could serve as our DH option.  We are getting closer with them.

This could be the ticket.  Mountain Creek is about the closest thing for DH for a lot of people coming from the west.  If it was more like, and better than Mountain Creek, with 3x the vert, then it could be something special.

ScottyJack wrote

The majority of our builds are done through volunteer efforts.  However the last two years we scored some grants and gifts to fund two seasons of a pro crew.  Made a huge difference.  

Our clubs have done the same.  Apparently I'm told by the management that the more volunteer hours, the more they count toward getting grant money.

ScottyJack wrote

We def want to get an IMBA epic.  We have approval to reroute two miles of hike a bike on the cooperkiln trail in the northern zone of the wilmington wild forest. Once complete this 9+ mile trail which tops out at 3100 feet asl will be above the Poornams downhill and flume network so we’re hoping it could qualify.   It would be on the order of 30 plus miles, a chit ton of climb and descend and im not aware of any non lift service trails on the east coast that traverse elevations above 3000 feet.

Pisgah for sure.  They have a way bigger mountain biking infrastructure right now.  I've never been down there, but the thing that isn't the greatest is a lot of their trails are grown over forest roads.  They definitely have hand and machine built new singletrack though.  But Pisgah is a long way most of NY and PA - the Adirondacks are much closer.  Epics will bring the real serious, destination riders.

ScottyJack wrote

The Saranac Lake Wild Forest (covers LP and SL) will get approved end of this year and it will include 30 more miles of mtn bike trails.

This will bring us to over 100 miles of single track between SL, LP and Wilmington.  

This will be great!  

ScottyJack wrote

Our next step is to lobby the state to dedicate 1 million dollars from the 250 million dollar enviromental protection fund to hire organizations like Adk Mtn Club, BETA, the Steve Ovits to build mtn bike trails.

Our success in Wilmngton already had garnered local gov and business support.  

You can help by joining Beta.  It’s only 35 bucks a year or 100 for family membership.  

Once will build out the SL LP Big Wink destingation zone we could turn our attention to places like Inlet and North Hudson

I'm surprised you guys don't know anything about this Moose River Plains deal with IMBA.  I thought for sure you'd be leading that trail building.  I don't see the point in having multiple organizations within the park to build if are volunteer and/or not-for-profit.  You can of course then sub-contract others to help build.

I will definitely give you my $35.  I can't get up to help build, but I will definitely support any way I can.

I don’t know much about MTB trails, but it makes sense to me that single track can easily be confined to the woods.  Aren’t flow trails usually wider, with longer sight lines? Seems it would be harder to accomplish that and achieve flow through the woods without some cutting and clearing, no?  There’s a reason you add a zero to the cost of a mile of flow as opposed to a mile of single track, right?  I could see that maybe being an issue with the APA and WF/ORDA?

You guys have me thinking of taking my son and our crappy hardtails over to Stewart this weekend.....all the MTB discussion lately is cool!

JTG4eva! wrote

I don’t know much about MTB trails, but it makes sense to me that single track can easily be confined to the woods.  Aren’t flow trails usually wider, with longer sight lines? Seems it would be harder to accomplish that and achieve flow through the woods without some cutting and clearing, no?  There’s a reason you add a zero to the cost of a mile of flow as opposed to a mile of single track, right?  I could see that maybe being an issue with the APA and WF/ORDA?

You guys have me thinking of taking my son and our crappy hardtails over to Stewart this weekend.....cool discussion!

Bike trails don't follow the fall line, so they'd likely traverse the ski trails.  You then just cover them with snow in the winter.  It only takes a foot or two to make them a smooth ski run again.

That makes sense, if you could keep flow to existing trails.  Once you have to cut anything in the woods (to make berms and turns to allow the traverses) things in the Adirondak Park seem to get complicated.  I hope that’s not a big issue, or it can be overcome.

I rode Steward this past Saturday..Great place to get back into MTB..

This is the main flow trail at the Creek...Runs under and around the main lift

I think the green mountain trails and the dacks are about the same distance.  Kingdom way further.

If you do the tour de Wilmington one day and then head over to lp and do the Craig wood and Luci trail the next you will be totally stoked you did.  Kingdom has way more trails but they do not have any better quality trails.  The new trails that loop the Flume are some of the best biking I have done anywhere.  No Joke.   LP/ Craig wood you are going to get the flowy machine made with hits bigger than I would ever attempt.  bring your climbing legs you are looking at about 2.5 k of climbing if you hit what's laid out.   I did not even mention Hardy.  That is another day of riding.

When you are done you have tons of options for after ride drinks.  

Book a room at the Cadence Lodge in Wilmington.  It was redone by a biker with bikers in mind.  Super fun place.  You are certain to find fun people around the HUB.

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https://www.betatrails.org/

Thanks
Looking at the 22nd

I have been to Kingdom and other areas in VT.. Placid is nice straight run up the thruway for me..

Should be prime leave season by then!!

We know about Moose River, Essex Chain and North Hudson.  

Got years of work to build trails approved in our towns, so driving two hours to build trails in towns that do not have the resources to maintain those trails is not priority 1.  Or 2,3,or 4.....

ScottyJack wrote

We know about Moose River, Essex Chain and North Hudson.  

Got years of work to build trails approved in our towns, so driving two hours to build trails in towns that do not have the resources to maintain those trails is not priority 1.  Or 2,3,or 4.....

Gotcha.  Do you know if there are funds appropriated for those projects or are they just approvals by the DEC that will wait in the queue?

No funds approved for those projects

NY drives me nuts sometimes.  So if I get this right, it took 7 years to approve an amendment to a UMP for a trail system of which there are no funds, or organizations to build?

Is there anything that can be done to help this along?  

Kinda crazy, right.  

I think a public campaign to point out its time to put some funding behind these plans to get things built.  DEC totes the economic impacts of these plans but if the trails and other facilities are not built its just noise.