Belleayre, Whiteface & Gore: Together Under ORDA?

Those are excellent points Benny. Where is Gore's advertising or NC's in general? Those two are always bellyaching they wanna be a destination resort, yet they don't really go after it. Last season, Gore's TV ads never hit local TV here until like late January.

 Even if they just joined chat rooms and spread the word it would help. That's free! In a Quad forum I frequent, different aftermarket suppliers not only advertise but they chime in on the board.

Benny, I too think a depression is coming.

Does anyone know why Gore has almost 15% more skier visits and 10% less revenue than Whiteface?

GSM ...  I'm guessing  at this ... Gore might have a larger percentage of passholder visits than Whiteface, which could lower the revenue per visit. With dual passholders living in the capital district, it could make sense that those passholders would hit Gore more because it's closer.

Another factor could be Whiteface's status as a destination resort. With everything Lake Placid has to offer, and the mountain's well-deserved reputation, I wouldn't be surprised if more people take full vacations at Whiteface. Those multi-day tickets are more per day than what passholders might pay.  If any has some actual facts..

Not sure how you guys define downstate.  If you are talking the NY Metro, IMO it's too expensive to make a dent in that market with traditional advertising.  I'd fish where the fish are: Gore Mountain Visitors.

Benny ... that Google Adsense ad is for the Epic pass it running at the bottom of Harvey Road because somebody doesn't understand the basics of geotargeting Google ads. Hard to believe as it's incredibly simple to seup.

Harvey44 wrote

that Google Adsense ad is for the Epic pass it running at the bottom of Harvey Road because somebody doesn't understand the basics of geotargeting Google ads.

Aren't there East Coasters (especially people from the Mid-Atlantic states) who buy those Epic Passes and fly to Colorado for a couple weeks each winter?  Like that guy on FTO from New Jersey?

I read that Vail corp. was intentionally targeting the upscale and/or foreign market with that pass as a convenient way to buy a 10 day pass (or maybe less, you figure it out) for their vacation(s). I don't get how it works in the new world of flat to down real estate, which is what they really want to sell, but, they continue to do this. The old owners of Killington tried to mimic it, but, hey, they're the old owners. The new owners are trying to run a profitable business.

All I know is, the cheapest place to ski is Summit County in Co.. A lot less than a thousand dollars buys you a ton of mountains within a very long season. Wish I could find a good job in Denver.

Appreciate all the history and perspective.  From my shortview, ORDA is spending money on Gore, the way we want...no, focus on Gore, no, but it is occuring.      Don't know whats happening with the convention center, but NY has tons of state workers...some might say too many...and state workers love conventions.   How can they turn down their own basically state owned convention cneter.     In Md, I often attend conventions in Balt City----always full of State Workers doing con-ed.    

The convention center will definitely feed business to the local resturants and shops, no doubt.   Dont think it will help the ORDA mission....but you never know.   Maybe the ski convention held in vegas will make it to placid.    I would attend.   Airfair would be one thing holding back a convention from across the US.  

With respect to Belle--they would benefit, Gore/WF would not....but State overhead would be cut, ads would be better, shared expenses could be made...but remember this is a State run business...any money saves is ferrited away to another special interest, not put back into the business.      

Goreskimom wrote

Does anyone know why Gore has almost 15% more skier visits and 10% less revenue than Whiteface?

I think I may know. the stat page said skier visits were an estimate.  Well the revenue "would" be a added up/totaled up figure and maybe more accurate as it's a math function and should be "close" to real for the financial books. Also, side spending like lessons, booze, food, rentals would varying unrelated to skier numbers.

The Convention Center..... Soooooooooooo while there's a large chance it won't be utilized by the private sector BUT lots of State Workers will go State funded affairs there? Placid Convention Center full of State workers on the Taxpayer's dime.....WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you kidding?

THAT'S FUDGED UP!!!  Spend ORDA money so State money can be spent for State workers to party on...But hey it will help Placid businesses? Who the hell cares!

Hardly any justification for building the damn thing. That is so out of touch with the taxpayers/ average private sector citizen and democracy in general. Seriously, I do hope you were joking. It may be a reality but it is not a just cause.

Will Marie Antoinette be joining these Convention partys ?

I:)skiing wrote

The convention center will definitely feed business to the local resturants and shops, no doubt.   Dont think it will help the ORDA mission....but you never know.   Maybe the ski convention held in vegas will make it to placid.    I would attend.   Airfair would be one thing holding back a convention from across the US.  

   

You are correct about helping the local businesses - in Lake Placid. As I mentioned in the earlier post most of the ORDA board has a local business (or connection) interest in Lake Placid. The convention center does nothing for North Creek.

Air fare is one of many access problems for the convention center. The airport in Albany are generally not well seviced and cost more than flying into  bigger airports. Albany is at least a 2.5 hour drive (w/o weather issues) after an already long day of flying for anybody with connections. NY metro area is a 5 hour drive. Montreal is about 2 hours, but who wants to fly out of the country to come back in.
The other major problem is winter weather. Assuming you have a winter convention to enjoy the winter sports,  Albany has way more winter weather issues than Denver, Salt Lake, Las Vegas, or Reno. As we all know, the weather in LP can be abusive. There is a wider range of conditions than the western choices for winter conventions. With summer conventions you lose the Olympic Sports moniker and become basically like any major mountain venue with big hotels that have big rooms.

As snowballs mentioned, the $25million would have been better spent on the winter facilities. Now it is quite possible that the $ would not have existed for anything but a convention center, but I still think after 9/11 it is a waste.

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70s Gore Kid wrote

 I always thought of the DEC as good at protecting the Hudson River from Polluters, not the best mountain operator.

Who said anything about the DEC running all three mountains?

Our real goal is to get ORDA to green light a convention center near Belleayre.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Who said anything about the DEC running all three mountains?

Our real goal is to get ORDA to green light a convention center near Belleayre.

HAHAHA. Then the North Creek crowd will want one too.

Any good convention town needs a nice topless bar or two. Another revenue source for the state workers?

I was not buying or selling the LP convention center.   There is a thread for that on the ADKWF site   Just stating my opinion as to how ORDA may be justifying the expendature.

If the town council is smart they will put in an ordinace on strip clubs..because I do agree, one will show up.   Women shop when they go to convention.  Men go out....not justifying or saying what I might do, just giving my perspective again.    Bet some local business has already filed the paperwork.  


How about this....a 12 mile gondola from the convention center directly to WF?   Disney style.  


Also agree with airport---expense and burden is too much to get any national conventions.     Sorry, vegas and fla will always be cheeper and more attended. THis is a State playground  by all orders in my view.  

I:)skiing wrote

How about this....a 12 mile gondola from the convention center directly to WF?   Disney style.  

UR kidding right?

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I:)skiing wrote

How about this....a 12 mile gondola from the convention center directly to WF?   Disney style.  

UR kidding right?

Not kidding. Lussi actually said something like this during the Front Street 'shake down' meeting discussion of delaying the new Ski Bowl lift  May, 2009. He said he would love to have ORDA connect him/LP to WF and he would gladly contribute for a lift to WF. Weibrecht chimed in that he would contribute also. Lussi was so angry that the Ski Bowl lift was going to increase Front Street's property value and Front Street had not  'contributed'. The property was for sale for at least a year and maybe longer. Nobody said Lussi couldn't buy it. It was easier for the ORDA board to delay delay delay in an effort to keep Gore status quo.

If that property ever gets developed (big if) Gore will attract many skiers from who might head up to LP or over to VT. Slopeside beds are a huge factor for many skiers.

x10003q wrote

If that property ever gets developed (big if) Gore will attract many skiers from who might head up to LP or over to VT. Slopeside beds are a huge factor for many skiers.

How long has it been? I remember the "excitement" I heard from some people in '03 when I first heard about these condos. If they got it done in a prompt fashion, like in the real world of real estate development, they may have sold some before the market crashed. Now? I'm skeptical. Especially when you can pick something up over in Vermont at a discount, that is, if you could - that requires a good job and source of credit for a second home, and the latter is pretty damn hard to find these days, if you can't HELOC the home castle.
It's all good anyway. North Creek doesn't need a bunch of ugly, unsold condos spoiling the view, right?

x10003q wrote

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I:)skiing wrote

How about this....a 12 mile gondola from the convention center directly to WF?   Disney style.  

UR kidding right?

Not kidding. Lussi actually said something like this during the Front Street 'shake down' meeting discussion of delaying the new Ski Bowl lift  May, 2009. He said he would love to have ORDA connect him/LP to WF and he would gladly contribute for a lift to WF. Weibrecht chimed in that he would contribute also. Lussi was so angry that the Ski Bowl lift was going to increase Front Street's property value and Front Street had not  'contributed'. The property was for sale for at least a year and maybe longer. Nobody said Lussi couldn't buy it. It was easier for the ORDA board to delay delay delay in an effort to keep Gore status quo.

If that property ever gets developed (big if) Gore will attract many skiers from who might head up to LP or over to VT. Slopeside beds are a huge factor for many skiers.

After doing a little Goggling I found Silver Mountain in Kellogg, Idaho lays claim to the world’s longest gondola at just over 3 miles long.
http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/long457.html

The gondola that connects Whistler and Blackcomb is 1.88 miles long.

However, Iran plans to build a 22 mile long gondola at the cost of 5 billion dollars.
http://www.payvand.com/news/10/aug/1258.html

So anyways, I’m thinking a 12 mile gondola from the convention center in LP to WF is a pretty ambitious project. I sure hope they put snowmaking on Hoyt’s first.

There's been plenty of grumbling about ORDA in the preceding comments, but little to convince me to change my view.  I still beleive that Belleayre, skiers and taxpayers would all be better served with Belleayre consolidated into ORDA.

HPD said "Back then (when all three ski areas were under DEC) Gore and WF where run down to crap too. They have both thrived since ORDA."  That sounds like a good argument FOR bringing Belle into ORDA.

X1003q said "If Belleayre was under ORDA it would just end up supporting LP like Gore does. ORDA has minimal interest in Gore."  The record of improvements that have been undertaken at Gore contradicts X's statement.  Sure, there's more that could be done (Gore needs more snowmaking firepower!) but Gore skiers have little to complain about in the way of investment by ORDA.

HPD argued exactly the opposite of X: "Bell would be a drain of $ away from WF/Gore."  I'm not sure how that would happen.  Belle would bring with it to ORDA the appropriations that it currently receives from NYS under DEC.

Snowballs: "Gore gets more customers than Face and yet they get short changed by ORDA."  Gore does get more skier visits: 218 thousand last year vs 192 thousand at WF.  Revenues however were almost identical:  $8.4 million at both ski areas.  From an operational view, SB may have a point:  Gore skiers are faced with limited mid-week terrain whereas WF skiers have access to the full mountain.  That is something that Gore needs to improve upon, but I don't think those terrain closures are tantamount to a conspiracy by ORDA to divert funds to Lake Placid.

Snowballs also stated: "Someday, ORDA will be audited."  Well, they are.  Marvin & Co. CPAs conducts an annual audit of ORDA, the most recent audit report is available here and 5 years of audit reports are available on ORDA's website.

Darkside Shaman stated: "The state should not be in the ski business, period!"  That's another discussion.  Given the state constitutional issues, I don't see a practical alternative.

I:)skiing wrote: "With respect to Belle--they would benefit, Gore/WF would not....but State overhead would be cut, ads would be better, shared expenses could be made."  As James pointed out, the North Creek and Lake Placid economies (rather than VT) could benefit from destination ski trips by Belle skiers, and the overhead savings should benefit skiers and taxpayers.  A coordinated approach to being in the ski business by NYS only makes sense.

70s Gore Kid: "I spent my entire childhood skiing Gore under Dept of Environmental Conservation control:  I don't think anyone wishes for a return to those days."  Nor do I.  ORDA has done a much better job with Gore and WF than DEC.  Let them run Belleayre as well.

Adk Jeff,
You can remain unconvinced if you continue to ignore the clear conflict of interest by the ORDA Board of Directors. Lussi and Weibrecht directly benefit from the million $ ORDA budgets they control. The more money they spend on WF and the money losing facilties around LP the more people fill up their properties.

Maybe you can answer some of the following questions:

Why did WF get a Gondola when Gore's 30+ year old gondola was replaced? It would have been much cheaper to install the HSQ Facelift and replace the Little WF double with a HSQ.

The Top Ridge Lift was supposed to be a HSQ. Instead Gore got a used triple from WF. Why?

Most of the recent Gore upgrades where on master plans from the 1980s. Why did it take so long for these plans to happen?

When is the Ad Express HSTriple going to be replaced? It was installed in about 1984. By the way why is it a triple?

Why did it take so long to get a green trail (Ruby Run) from the top of Gore's new Gondola?

Why is the snowmaking horsepower at Gore so low? WF also has snowmaking problems.

Why was the High Peaks Chair at Gore shortened?

Why is there no new Lodge at the top of the new Gondola at Gore? Gore is now almost 500 acres and they still have not added any new on mountain toilets. Why?

Here is the big money question: Why is ORDA building a $25million convention center? What winter sports will be using this facility? Do you think a split of 1/3 of the money would improve WF/Gore?

I agree that Gore is way better. Sort of like upgrading in 2010 from a 1992 Ford Taurus to a 2002 Ford Taurus. The 2002 Taurus is way better than the 1992, but it is still a 9 year old car. ORDA has done the same thing at Gore.

X, comparing what Gore has received versus what WF has received over the years misses the point, which is that BOTH have had significant improvements made under ORDA.  By comparison, the investment at Belle under DEC mgt has been nil.  So under which model (ORDA or DEC) would Belle, skiers and taxpayers be better off?

I don’t like the potential conflict of interest on the ORDA board either, but such is the nature of politics.  ORDA’s by-laws specify that 3 of the 10 board members shall be appointed by the Governor upon the recommendation of the Town of North Elba Town Board, and that one shall be a Warren County resident.  While that gives Lake Placid more direct representation than Gore, 3 out of 10 is not a majority.  

As for the LP convention center, the decision was never between spending the money on the convention center versus spending the money on skiing facilities.  Let LP have their convention center… North Creek is not, has never been, and will not ever be Lake Placid, and I don’t mean that as an insult of any kind to North Creek, they are just two completely different towns with completely different economic bases.

Yes, there are more improvements that should be done at Gore.  And there’s lots to be done at Belleayre too.   Parsing out resources is bound to be contentious, but ORDA’s the best shot we’ve got for advancing skiing in New York.