Belleayre, Whiteface & Gore: Together Under ORDA?

What does everyone think about the ongoing rumors that Belleayre will be added to ORDA, which means that there would be a season-pass covering all three state-owned mountains? I would be for it, but I could imagine that opinions in the ADKs would split depending on people's relationships to the mountains.

Lodging, restaurants, and other ancillary businesses would welcome it, I'd assume, since there'd be more destination visitors each winter.  This would correspond to the reason NYS got into the ski business in the first place: to provide economic stimulus to struggling rural regions.

However, I'd bet that the people who manage Gore and Whiteface (as well as passholders at those mountains) might not be happy to receive more skier visits with no additional revenue attached to them.  Of course, one could argue that they can't have it both ways, as most of the state's tax revenues (the money that funds those two mountains) comes from the downstate region, i.e. Belleayre's audience.  

It seems to me that this "All-NYstate owned" pass idea comes up every year in different forums.
I dispute the idea that more Bell passholders would come north for extended stays. That may or may not happen, no one knows. Also, there is no political will to combine the 3. Has anyone ever read about any state official, mountain management, etc. say they would like to see this happen?

Back when all three ski areas were under DEC management, a Gore/Whiteface pass could be used at Belleayre, and vice versa.

Back then Gore and WF where run down to crap too. They have both thrived since ORDA.

I for one would not want to see it happen. I think Bell would be a drain of $ away from WF/Gore.

If I ski at Belle, there is no way I want ORDA in my pockets. They crap on Gore on a regular basis. The ORDA board of directors is mostly filled with Lake Placid centric members. Most of the venues in and around LP do not  support themselves. They do help fill the huge properties owned by ORDA board members Serge Lussi (LP attorney and owner Crowne Plaza Resort), and Ed Wiebrecht (Mirror Lake Inn, father of Andrew). Pat Barrett is a LP attorney. Cliff Donaldson is the former Essex County Manger (LP is in Essex County). Jerry Stack ownes the Central Garage in LP and is  long time North Elba town councilman.  Robert Flacke seems to be the only Warren County rep and he ownes the Fort William Henry Resort in Lake George (more competition for North Creek). ORDA has plowed millions of $ into the new convention center in LP at a time when the convention business is taking huge losses due to the economy. They are tasked with running the winter sports venues. I wonder what winter sports will be taking place in the convention center.

Last year the ORDA BoD delayed the NC Ski Bowl interconnect in an effort to try to shake down Front Street (they own the land next to the NC ski bowl). Lussi was angry that this "new" chair lift was going to increase the value of the Front Street property and they should contribute. It was sad watching Mike Pratt trying to explain that this was not a good idea. Some residents from NC went to the next meeting and nothing became of this nonsense other than to delay the work on the interconnect for a couple of months.

This interconnect has been on various plans since I started skiing at Gore in 1985. Why did it take 20 plus years to happen? Maybe because the ORDA Board does not want any competition from Gore for overnight skiers. The largest property in NC is the Copperfield Inn. It has a whole 31 rooms. It went out of business and was recently resurected. Lussi's Crowne Plaza has 246 rooms. LP has 5000 plus rooms and NC might have only 500. As long as Gore remained basically a day area for the greater Albany metro region, the ORDA board was happy. If Gore/NC ever became what it could be, LP would take a hit on the overnight skiers. Gore is closer and easier to drive to than WF, Gore has more sliable acres than WF, it has better blue terrain, it handles a crowd better than WF (IMHO), and it is warmer and less exposed and windy than WF.

If Belleayre was under ORDA it would just end up supporting LP like Gore does. ORDA has minimal interest in Gore and Gore is only about an hour away. They would have even less interest in Belle. Belle is doing well right now, no need to rock the boat.

X2^^^. That was exactly my first thoughts. Many here are ORDA/LP centric and they got huffy when people complained about ORDA and the completely lousy snowmaking job Gore did last year. If they had to put up with that at Whiteface they'ld no doubt be screaming bloody murder.

Gore can't get proper snowmaking, yet ORDA spends 25 million plus on the Convention Center! WTH! For years, even before the economy went sour, there's been a huge over abundance of Convention Center space nationwide. Lots of it goes way under booked. The Convention Center in Lake Placid will go unused for years and the Gore budget will suffer.

Gore gets more customers than Face and yet they get short changed by ORDA. I saw the ORDA meeting were Pratt had to go hat in hand and practically beg for them to complete a project that THE STATE PAID FOR! and ORDA had already started. It was freegin embarassing. He was emasculated. They were going to delay it's completion for at least a year maybe more!

I don't see  Lussi or Weibrecht doing what they themselves were demanding from Front Street. Those very two people tried to extort money from Front Street! Sooooooo.....Where's Lussi's and Wiebrecht's financial contribution to ORDA? They directly benefit financially from ORDA, where's their check to pay back this blessing? Hmmm? How about they pay for Hoyt's snowmaking or making an ongoing yearly financial contribution to ORDA just like they were trying to extort from Front Street.

ORDA would further bleed Bellayre to support Placid. Someday, ORDA will be audited.

The state should not be in the ski business, period!

"Gore/WF would get more people from the NYC region spending money in the Adirondacks with their season passes, skiers would have more options and value from their passes."

I'm not quite clear as to how adding Belleayre to the mix would accomplish this. I'm a downstater, and hardly see any promotions for Gore or Whiteface down here. I mention Gore to avid and not so avid skiers, and get a blank look 90% of the time. "Oh yeah, I've .....heard... of that place. .............Um, hey, how 'bout those Yankees!" Heck, I never skied there until I moved to Saratoga Springs for a few years recently. Actually, selfish me, that's the way I'd like it to stay. It's my Saturday mountain.

Benny Profane wrote

I'm not quite clear as to how adding Belleayre to the mix would accomplish this. I'm a downstater, and hardly see any promotions for Gore or Whiteface down here.

I agree about the lack of Gore/WF marketing south of Albany, but are you telling me that if Belleayre passholders could ski the ADKs without paying for lift tickets, that they'd still go to the southern/central VT usual suspects for a destination ski trip that doesn't involve taking a plane?

Given most people's money issues these days, you don't think that it'd be a no-brainer to go to Gore or WF?

No. Most people who ski aren't in it for the skiing. They are in it for the party. Sorry, the bar at Gore is cool, but North Creek is nothing. Lake Placid is better, of course, but can't compete with the access road at Killington, among others.

Of course, the real party people stop at Hunter. My manager, who's kind of young (younger than me), tells me about spending three or four seasons there in a house, and he doesn't ski. At all.

Benny you way off dude. The party Hunter is no more and has been that way for some time. Hardly any bars left, same for Tannersville. DMC of Alpinezone fame has been reporting this for years. He lives there and is Mr. Hunter.
I grew up skiing at Hunter, back in the day it was nuts, but not now.

Well, whatdoIknow?  I ski Hunter once every two or three years as a goof. But, it's more party than North Creek. Any place is.

 Furgetaboutit. Huntah rules.

Benny Profane wrote

it's more party than North Creek. Any place is.

There's a very hot waitress at Trappers Tavern. That'll have to be enough for now.

Man rule #8: Never, never, fall for the barmaid/waitress.

There are a bunch of "constituents" here, and assuming all are going to act in there own self interest, you're going to have a lot of different opinions.

Administrative efficiencies in some part refers to redundancies in ORDA and DEC management. If you eliminate some jobs, taxpayers would probably like it, those eliminated probably wouldn't.

If I'm a skier at a mountain that gets a smaller cut of a fixed budget I'm bummed. If my hill gets more, I'm smilin. That's reality.

One big question ... how many Bell passholders take destination trips to Vermont? If it's significant number, then I've got to believe James has a point.  Especially for families. If I've got three kids and I take a week at Killington every year, but my passes are covered at Whiteface, I'd definitely consider it, especially with all LP has to offer.  That issue should be studied. How many Bell skiers take destination trips to VT?

A related issue that others have raised - is ORDA's goal to promote the local economy or only the ski hill itself? If Whiteface and Gore don't gain pass revenue from a Bell skier - is that skier visit considered a loss? Does local business revenue or or ski school revenue count?

I'm betting, outside of rare occurrences like last year's Snowicane... it's unlikely that a significant number of Albany skiers would regularly hit the Catskills when the Adks and Vt are just as close. So the trade off would have to be ... money for Bell and skier visits for the Adk/NY State economy.

In my own case, a three way pass would cost Bell money. Usually, Bell is my Catskill Mtn of choice. If my ORDA pass was good there, they'd lose whatever I spend on lift tickets.

ORDA is definitely an engine for the Adk economy. The estimate that's out there says that the $30 million ORDA budget produces $250 million in NY GDP. Even if that number is high, it's hard to see how that isn't a good ROI for the taxpayers of the state.  There are probably ways to increase that return, and you might get the same return or better if the mountains were privately run.  ORDA is, in some ways, a government jobs program.

I agree with HPD ... Gore has come a LONG way in the last few years.  Somebody is responsible for it. Who decides that Gore gets the money for Burnt Ridge and the Ski Bowl? Is that an ORDA decision? Does ORDA lobby for that money? How does that work?  I'll may see Mike this week - if I do ask him how that works.

I know James would LOVE Bell to get access to Highmount. What are other improvements that Bell skiers want?  And who could help push those through? Would ORDA make a difference there?

Welcome Benny!

Benny Profane wrote

Most people who ski aren't in it for the skiing. They are in it for the party. Sorry, the bar at Gore is cool, but North Creek is nothing. Lake Placid is better, of course, but can't compete with the access road at Killington, among others.

When I ski my goals are to ski bell-to-bell for as many days as I can.  All of our time off the hill is devoted to getting the family dry, warm, fed and rested. Reading a few bedtime stories, and gearing up for the next day.  From what I've seen, other Gore families have a similar approach. Maybe the mellow night life in NC attracts that kind of skier.

There are definitely Gore skiers who throw some great parties too. But they are usually at someone's home, and people are on the hill in the morning.

IMO Gore and Whiteface are a great combination, offering ORDA passholders a wide range of everything. Think about how well those two mountains and ski towns compliment each other. Nothing against Killington - it's a great hill. But I personally don't have a need for much of what you'll find on the access road. Then again - I'm 52.

One last thing. I have to disagree with the idea that North Creek is nothing. It may not suit your needs, but North Creek is really something IMO.

Benny maybe on to something. Many times, skiers talk alot about partying. You see it on different  sites (other than ours), in mags and such. But our group doesn't WOOHOO it up as  much nor do we even talk about it! .

Could it be the State run aspect of our hills and the ADK Forever Wild Decree limits the Sex, drugs and Rock and Roll? Think about it,  There's just not near as much Bars, clubs, dance halls - whatever - anywhere around ORDA areas cuz there's just not alot of land it's permissible to build on?...Be it bars or condos

AND during the offseason, there's not enough partyers around to support the juke joints? Yea there's some in Placid, but it's not hardly know as a Party town by any stretch of the imagination.

WTFrick! The Blue line has turned us into a bunch of Mormons!?!?

Doesn't bother me. I gave up partying and making girls grin years ago.....tho it was fun.

What are the skier numbers for Gore/Whiteface over the last two seasons? How have they fared during this great recession?

Harvey44 wrote

All of our time off the hill is devoted to getting the family dry, warm, fed and rested. Reading a few bedtime stories, and gearing up for the next day.  

Didn't I see you in a Norman Rockwell painting?

Sorry if it was a little too cute James. One thing I left out ... was blogging...

Benny Profane wrote

What are the skier numbers for Gore/Whiteface over the last two seasons? How have they fared during this great recession?

Here are recent ORDA skier visit numbers through 2009/2010.

At the end of last year Mike Pratt attributed the dropoff to the lack of natural snow, and the fact that half of what did fall fell after President's Day. He also said with The Big One (2/22-2/26) it would have been much worse as March 2010 was one of the mountains strongest ever.

EDITED to include this seasons visit numbers.

Lucky March was strong or the numbers woulda really sucked. Let's hope they got the snowmaking issues resolved and hammer it good. Another bad year, natural or Nomaking, could be very bad news for Gore. Nobody wants that.

I wonder if the lack of a true party scene hurts Gore's visitor numbers. Wouldn't surprise me. There's much ado about Apres Ski in the industry. The destination crowd likes to party.

Sure it goes hand in hand with hotel space somewhat, but the existing hotels are hardly booming. They can barely stay open.

We need to get Playboy to do a " Babes of North Creek " issue!!! LMAO.

Think Auntie Em will don a bikini?

Get that cabin off of Thomas mtn Harv and we'll turn HQ into party central.

"Here are recent ORDA skier visit numbers through 2008/2009."

The big question, and, I guess we need some good marketing people working on this that, I'm afraid, the state doesn't employ, is how these numbers have been skewed by the many who are not flying west for their skiing and staying within driving distance. The recession (I think it's beginning to look like a depression) could actually make the idea of a trilogy of state owned mountains close to millions somewhat profitable in the next decade. They have to do much better promotions, though, targeting all of those who travel even further to stand in line over in Vermont. For instance, here's a no brainer - the Gore/Whiteface season pass is now almost half as much as a Killington pass today. Make an ad featuring that that could pop up on ski internet sites and chat rooms, do a few small print ads in NYC sports sections. Lodging deals? There's a whole bunch of unused beds down in Lake George that I'm sure some owners would love to get some cash flow from if they knew they could partner with a reliable marketing department up in the mountains. Snowballs points out that hotels aren't doing well in North Creek - why is that? Where are most of the present Gore skiers coming from? Day trippers, obviously, with no housing at all at the base. How do you get the 4 to 7 day skiers to come? This is not rocket science, and there are a bunch of experienced marketing people from the ski biz who could help.

But, as I said, I like it the way it is, in a selfish way. The less skiers, the better. But that will kill the place, eventually.

edit: Ha. I go to the bottom of the page here, and see a pop up ad for the Colorado Pass! Now, what is wrong with this picture? We don't live in Denver.