Big SNOW in NJ, set to open Oct 2019 . . . make that Dec 2019

marznc wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Dear lord, when did construction on that thing start? 2005 or so?

The building dates back to the doomed Xanadu development.  The current developer is Triple Five.  Got interested in 2011 but didn't get full control until 2013.  Triple Five developed, owns, and operates the Mall of America and another giant mall and theme park in Calgary.

Don't remember when Snow Operating got on board to operate Big SNOW.  They pretty much inherited the design for the slope the contains the slope.  Snow Operating will use Terrain Based Learning (TM) features, which is a key component of their consulting business for ski schools at resorts like Killington and Snowshoe.  Snow Operating took over operations for Mountain Creek a few years ago.  The co-founders of Snow Operating used to run Mountain Creek before leaving to start up the new venture around 2012.  Apparently Eric Lipton, a member of the PSIAA National Alpine Team, has become COO.  Joe Hession remains Pres. and CEO.  He was GM at Mountain Creek.

Lipton is the real deal.  Might be interesting to see how good their ski school is.  This could create a new skier growth engine for the industry.  It’s not much of a leap to see Epic deciding owning no these kind of places grows the skier base for them if this proves succesful

marznc wrote

 Snow Operating...

I find Snow Operating to resemble a middle man scam.

The company's pitch is that they use their ski industry knowledge to come in and tell you what your operations team is doing wrong & what to do better. They tell you to spend a bunch of money on a, b, and c, then save money by cutting x, y, and z (maybe x, y, & z are all "employee salaries" and the way they save money is "hire H2B workers").

The golf course my parents live on down in Carolina hired a similar company, https://www.palmergolf.com/. They're using Arnold Palmer's name to run a middle man company (that charges a pretty penny for their services) that changes a bunch of stuff but doesn't really help the overall golf experience. Lots of retirees complaining about it down there (although, in truth, "retirees complaining" is a pretty typical thing everywhere).

I'd love to think Snow Operating really turns around troubled ski resorts, but as mentioned, it's usually rich places who can afford to spend money & take a flyer on a company that *might* have some good ideas that they hadn't thought of before.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I'd love to think Snow Operating really turns around troubled ski resorts, but as mentioned, it's usually rich places who can afford to spend money & take a flyer on a company that *might* have some good ideas that they hadn't thought of before.

From what I know, I don't think the objective of hiring Snow Operating for consulting services is to turn around a ski area that's about to go under.  Cataloochee was a strong, small, ski area in the southeast.  The core ideas don't require paying Snow Operating as a consulting to implement.  That's what happened at Massanutten (my home mountain).  Snowbasin didn't have to spend a lot to create a few features on the flats near the base that could be used for beginners and advanced skier alike to teach fundamentals.  The lesson I had with a PSIA Examiner made good use of those features, in a similar way as he used natural terrain elsewhere on the mountain.  I know someone who had a first snowboard lesson (older skier) at Killington with TBL, and it was a pretty good experience.

There was plenty of negative reaction from ski instructors when I first brought up TBL and Snow Operating on another forum.  Fair to say that none had viewed the early videos.  The only positive posts were from an instructor in the Mid-Atlantic who went thru the training and had started working using the ideas presented.

My viewpoint about Snow Operating is based partially on the fact that I worked for a contract research organization in the pharmaceutical industry.  I started when it was a small start-up.  The company did a range of services, from single consultant short-term advice on how to start a project to full-team multi-year contracts.  I know what the marketing was like and what the reality was like.  I know how we helped large and small client companies.  Worked pretty well considering the company grew enough to go public very successfully.

marznc wrote

..  Worked pretty well considering the company grew enough to go public very successfully.

I didn't say these companies weren't successful. There's always a market for "tell me what I can do better", especially among rich people & rich companies. There are entire industries built around it.

My point was that charging a bunch of money for ideas like "put a mound of snow over there and then I'll show you how to turn on it" seems scammy to me.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

marznc wrote

..  Worked pretty well considering the company grew enough to go public very successfully.

My point was that charging a bunch of money for ideas like "put a mound of snow over there and then I'll show you how to turn on it" seems scammy to me.

The features used for TBL is a relatively small component of what Snow Operating provides for it's clients.  It's just the most visible element of their marketing.  Any good ski school can replicate the ideas for teaching features in a dedicated training area.  That should be called terrain-based instruction, not Terrain Based Learning (TM).

Take a look at the list of ski schools that Snow Operating lists on their website.  They are also working directly with PSIA-AASI on videos for beginners.  Obviously the company has to make money, but their mission is about helping the industry find more effective ways to turn a never-ever skier or boarder into someone who wants to spend time and money having fun at the sport in years to come.  Big SNOW fits in well with that mission.  Applies to tourists from China and other countries as much as folks from NJ or NYC who may get curious at some point.  American Dream is not where locals are going to go shopping on a regular basis.

Have you ever talked to instructors who are working at a ski school working with Snow Operating?  The Snowbasin Examiner I had my private lesson was the retired Ski School Director.  He brought in Snow Operating.  He certainly knew how to use the TBL features for me and my friends as part of an advanced lesson as we headed to the gondola.  I've also talked to the Massanutten resident Examiner Emeritus about the pros and cons of having features in their teaching area.  Mnut experimented with TBL but aren't a client of Snow Operating.  Does require a certain amount of space for the features.  Alta has a feature built next to the beginner's moving carpet now.  Taos has a couple in the teaching area for adults.  I consider Alta and Taos ski schools as a couple of the best in the country, with long traditions of ski instruction.  I presume they see value in incorporating ideas proposed by Snow Operating.

Going to give this thread another try.

As noted in the NJ thread, Big SNOW hired Jim Haas as the GM.  Also announced the Slopes Manager, who has worked at Mountain Creek as well as in the Tahoe area.  They have two months to get Big SNOW ready for a Dec. 5 opening.

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9408-new-indoor-ski-area-big-snow-names-haas-gm
"SAM Magazine—Montville, N.J., Sept. 27, 2019— Four-decade industry veteran Jim Haas has been hired as the general manager of Big SNOW America, the new real-snow, indoor, year-round ski and snowboard center at the American Dream retail complex.HaasHN

Haas started his career with Snowshoe Mountain, where he held several management positions in risk, human resources, and resort services. He continued to work with Intrawest both internationally and domestically, first serving as GM of the indoor center Madrid Snowzone in Spain and then as VP of special projects for Intrawest’s commercial arm in Colorado.

. . .

Kristopher O’Rourke will join Haas on the BIG Snow leadership team as the new slopes manager. O’Rourke is a graduate of Sierra Nevada’s resort management program and has worked for Doppelmayr, Northstar California Resort, Diamond Peak Ski Resort, and Mountain Creek Resort. O’Rourke will be responsible for overseeing Big SNOW’s year-round snowmaking, grooming, and facility needs.
. . ."

By now, the building with the ski slope should be painted all white like the rest of the structures.  Painting started in early Sept.  Eventually there will be murals on the exterior walls but that won't be finished until the spring.

https://www.nj.com/bergen/2019/09/bye-bye-xanadu-american-dream-is-finally-painting-its-ugly-ski-slope.html

Marketing for the sections of American Dream that are opening in 2019 has started up.  Big SNOW scheduled to open on Dec. 5, while the waterpark is opening Thanksgiving week.  Oct. 25 is only for Nickelodeon rides and the ice skating rink.

https://www.njfamily.com/american-dream-opening/

According to a recent Snowbrains report, Big SNOW is "sixteen stories high, 180,000 square feet (16,723 square meters), and the slope will be 800 feet long (244 meters)."  But the original description on the Snow Operating website posted in 2016 said twelve stories.  So the question of vertical is still open.

https://snowbrains.com/first-indoor-ski-resort-us-opens-december/ - 9/30/19

I'm sorry, but I can't really get excited about this. Maybe..., I'll try it a novelty, but probably not.  It's been a monstrosity along the NJ Turnpike for, I believe, over a decade with nothing happening except some rust build-up.  Perhaps in the not so near future, when skiing outside is really a thing of the past due to global warming, it'll rock my boat. But, until then, I'll continue to get my turns outdoors.

Marcski wrote

I'm sorry, but I can't really get excited about this. Maybe..., I'll try it a novelty, but probably not.  It's been a monstrosity along the NJ Turnpike for, I believe, over a decade with nothing happening except some rust build-up.  Perhaps in the not so near future, when skiing outside is really a thing of the past due to global warming, it'll rock my boat. But, until then, I'll continue to get my turns outdoors.

Even if I still lived in NYC, my interest in following Big SNOW has nothing to do with where I want to ski personally.  The UK and Europe have had indoor snow centers for quite a while.  Why not in the U.S. too?

https://www.onthesnow.co.uk/news/a/583559/the-uk-s-indoor-skiing-centres

https://www.gonomad.com/86315-indoor-ski-centers-make-ski-season-year-round

I've skied with friends, with and without kids, on greens at Massanutten.  I've skied at Alta during my annual late season trip with older friends as beginners who became hooked on skiing.  Lessons were involved, over more than one season.  I've checked out the Liberty Univ. plastic outdoor slope during the summer.  I've had a lesson on an indoor rolling carpet (near DC).  I think for a never-ever or beginner, an indoor slope on manmade snow would be much more fun.

marznc wrote

  I think for a never-ever or beginner, an indoor slope on manmade snow would be much more fun.

I respect your opinion but I completely disagree.

Marcski wrote

marznc wrote

  I think for a never-ever or beginner, an indoor slope on manmade snow would be much more fun.

I respect your opinion but I completely disagree.

In the context of what I wrote, I meant that an indoor slope with manmade snow is probably more fun for a beginner than learning to ski on an indoor rolling carpet or a outdoor plastic slope.  Have you tried either?

Of course a regular beginner slope at a ski area/resort is the best.  But if an indoor slope were under hour away and the nearest ski hill was 2+ hours away, I'd seriously consider taking a friend curious about skiing to the indoor slope first.

We tried to turn a couple of my daughter's friends into skiers doing a long weekend at Massanutten, a 4-hour drive away.  The girls were tweens at the time.  A day trip to an indoor slope would've been better.  Especially one that provides the total package, including ski pants and jacket along with rental gear and lesson.  Kids in NC don't really have a need for cold weather clothing.

I’ve been following this out of curiosity myself. I thought it might be fun to go once as a goof but if they’re not opening til December, it’ll have to wait til after the season. As a business it’s kind of baffling. I understand what you’re saying MarzNC but the fact is that there is perfectly good beginners’ slopes very close to the city.  There’s Campgaw, where I could actually see the city skyline from the lifts https://forum.nyskiblog.com/Campgaw-2-16-2019-night-td4146257.html and there’s Thunder Ridge, which I think has a Metro North station right next to it if I remember correctly. Depending on what part of the city you’re coming from, they might even be closer. I can see where skiing in summer would be a sort of novelty. For it to work the way you’re suggesting I think it would have to be in a warm weather state- maybe outside Atlanta or DC or someplace like that.

Brownski wrote

I’ve been following this out of curiosity myself. I thought it might be fun to go once as a goof but if they’re not opening til December, it’ll have to wait til after the season. As a business it’s kind of baffling. I understand what you’re saying MarzNC but the fact is that there is perfectly good beginners’ slopes very close to the city.  There’s Campgaw, where I could actually see the city skyline from the lifts https://forum.nyskiblog.com/Campgaw-2-16-2019-night-td4146257.html and there’s Thunder Ridge, which I think has a Metro North station right next to it if I remember correctly. Depending on what part of the city you’re coming from, they might even be closer. I can see where skiing in summer would be a sort of novelty. For it to work the way you’re suggesting I think it would have to be in a warm weather state- maybe outside Atlanta or DC or someplace like that.

How many people in the NYC/NJ area who aren't skiers/boarders know that Campgaw or Thunder Ridge exist?  In particular in comparison to the number of non-skiers who have heard of American Dream in some way?

What I can imagine is a scenario when a family or small group of families decide to spend a day at American Dream.  They could do the never-ever all-inclusive package at Big SNOW plus spend time riding roller coasters or ice skating or playing in the water park.  Perhaps more likely to think of trying out snowsports during the winter than in the summer.  Of course, this Dec will be different since it's the Grand Opening.  The real test of whether Big SNOW has a market will come in the second half of 2020, after the retail and food sections of American Dream start opening.

For reasons I don't understand, there are parents who want their children to try skiing even though the parents aren't skiers and have no intention of learning.  I see that all the time on weekends at Massanutten (4-season timeshare resort 2-3 hours from DC).  I'm not talking about a family who goes once and never again.  I'm thinking about families who go annually until the kids get too busy with middle school or high school.

There is an indoor ski center that could be built near DC/Baltimore in the next few years.  Haven't heard any new news for a while though.  The American company spearheading the idea is partnering with SnowWorld.  It was interesting to watch live video when I found out about the idea a few months ago.  My impression is that the indoor slopes in Europe get busier as ski season approaches.  The larger indoor snow facilities are resorts, in the same sense that Great Wolf Lodge brings families in for the waterpark but there are other activities on resort as well.

https://www.snowworld.com/landgraaf/en/ski-slopes

The SAM article has the most detailed info so far.  Sounds like people with their own gear and warm clothing will be able to ski/board for a couple hours for $35, or 4 hours for $50.  The quad chairlift is fixed-grip, but with only 1000 ft to cover, it can't be that long a ride.  Total vert is 160 ft.  Campgaw and Maple Ridge have 270 ft vertical.

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9415-big-snow-indoor-ski-area-grand-opening-dec-5

" . . .
Big SNOW is a 180,000-square-foot, 16-story, climate-controlled facility. The skiable area is 1,000 feet long with 160 feet of vertical and a graduated slope ranging from 0 percent at the base to 26 percent at its steepest point. It will be served by three surface lifts, including two conveyors and a poma platter, and one aerial fixed-grip quad.

The facility will remain a constant 28 degrees Fahrenheit inside to ensure consistent and optimal snow conditions year-round. A total of more than 5,500 tons of snow will be shaped to an average depth of two feet throughout. Specially designed radiant cooling in the floor and snowmelt systems will maintain an ideal snow texture and reduce the center’s environmental impact.
. . .
Big SNOW will offer introductory lessons, private coaching, children’s programs, snow play, corporate team building, and private events. SNOW Day Packages, starting at $50, will include equipment rentals, helmets, winter outerwear (pants and jackets), slope access, and a complimentary introductory lesson through SNOW Operating’s proprietary Terrain Based Learning method of instruction. Slope access tickets for guests ages 7 and up will be $35 for two hours and $50 for four hours.
. . ."

Snowmaking has started at Big SNOW.  I would guess they are trying to be done to do staff training in November.  There are a couple job fairs scheduled for late Oct/early Nov.

Pretty clear that Snow Operating has figured out how things will run initially.  They provided a fair amount of detail to the NJ media outlet that's done the most coverage about American Dream.  The limit for the slope will be 500 people.  There are also pictures of the exterior as the mural is being painted now that the white base is done.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/bergen/east-rutherford/2019/10/11/american-dreams-indoor-ski-slope-to-open-december/3943481002/
" . . .
Lesson packages, including equipment, slope access and necessary clothing, start at $50. The cost is roughly half that of a similar program at Mountain Creek Resort in Vernon Township. There, patrons must bring their own clothing.

At Big SNOW, people can walk up with jeans and a T-shirt and get everything they need to brave the 28-degree venue.

“We really wanted to remove the barriers of entry that have traditionally kept people away from trying our sports,” Reynolds said. “You can do it year-round. You don’t have to drive far to do it. We give you all the equipment you need.”

In addition to equipment and clothing rentals and ski and snowboard lessons, Big SNOW offers guests access to high-end shopping and chalet-style lounging with views of the slope. All of it is in the wildly different atmosphere of a massive Meadowlands mall.

While patrons will be able to walk up and ski without a reservation at times, only 500 people will be allowed on the slope at once. As a result, advanced signups online are recommended and will be provided at a discount, Reynolds said.

“What you’re really doing when you’re buying online is buying a spot for yourself in the center for that time,” he said.

The man-made strip of slope is no mountain, but it is enough to satiate a mid-summer urge or provide newcomers with their first taste of the full alpine experience, Reynolds said. Newcomers eager to take that next step will be pointed to Mountain Creek Resort, an eight-lift ski destination run by SNOW Operating about an hour’s drive northwest in Vernon Township.
. . ."

What a giant waste of resources. But humans, being humans just can’t help themselves.

I wouldn't get anything myself out of skiing there, but I could see where if you had a very young child that you wanted to introduce them to skiing this wouldn't be all that bad.No wind chill, no thaw and refreeze and icy conditions. When my daughter was 5 and  learned to ski the hill was small and shorter than Big Snow and we skied for a good 4-6 hours and just seeing the smile on her face  made me forget how small of a hill and how short the trail was.

raisingarizona wrote

What a giant waste of resources. But humans, being humans just can’t help themselves.

Mi Skier wrote

I wouldn't get anything myself out of skiing there, but I could see where if you had a very young child that you wanted to introduce them to skiing this wouldn't be all that bad.No wind chill, no thaw and refreeze and icy conditions. When my daughter was 5 and  learned to ski the hill was small and shorter than Big Snow and we skied for a good 4-6 hours and just seeing the smile on her face  made me forget how small of a hill and how short the trail was.

raisingarizona wrote

What a giant waste of resources. But humans, being humans just can’t help themselves.

You’re both right

USSA is holding some high level SL training at Snow Valley in Belgium inside and Burke’s race team is training in Lithuania right now

The advantage is getting huge numbers of reps - you can train all day and night doing multiple sessions per day and no weather issues