Big Tupper Prospects Looking Bleak

campgottagopee wrote

Still 3 types of diploma's available

http://www.nysed.gov/curriculum-instruction/diploma-types

That link says that all types require Regents exams (which, again, wasn't the case when you & I went to school).

I guess I was wrong in saying they made Regents Diplomas mandatory, when I meant, "Regents tests to receive your diploma". My bad.

Peter Minde wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Z wrote

 

Orda is talking about spending $32 million on Mt VanHo for a new lodge which is just a stupid idea.  

Coach we need to remember this is NYS we're talking about. The same state that wants to do away with the regents diploma to increase graduation rates. HUH?? Like wow, that makes zero sense.

Gotta disagree on this.  After ~ 40 years of benign neglect, it's time to bring Mt van Ho into the present.

$60 MILLION  on Mt Van Ho???? Wow
https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2019/06/van-ho-price-tag-goes-up/

"Michael Pratt, CEO of the state Olympic Regional Development Authority, said last week that upgrades at Mount Van Hoevenberg’s Olympic Sports Complex are now expected to reach upward of $60 million. A new 30,000-square-foot, three-story base lodge will cost $32 million by itself, Pratt said. "

Z wrote

MC2 5678F589 wrote

endoftheline wrote

. I'll keep playing all the Lottos and if I win big, Big T will reopen. .

This has been my plan for the last 15 years, but somehow, I haven't won yet.

If ORDA's mission is to empower depressed areas of the state through sports, NY State should buy Big Tupper, sink a couple million into lift, lodge & snowmaking upgrades, then sell it in 10-15 years. Tupper Lake is one of those Upstate NY towns that really seems to struggle (that grocery store across from where they do Woodsman Days is one of the saddest places in the state). I think a huge infusion of money would be pretty effective (more effective than a "Mountain Coaster" at Mount Van Hoevenberg, imo).

I tend to be shocked when MC and i agree about anything.  

https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2019/07/big-tupper-in-limbo-again/

Seems that Franklin Co foreclosing and then transferring Tupper to Orda could be a workable plan.  Makes way more sense than wasting money on Belleryre

Orda is talking about spending $32 million on Mt VanHo for a new lodge which is just a stupid idea.  Divert even a third of that to Tupper and get it back running.  Probably would take a year or so to get the summit there running so make it skinning access up there to give Tupper a niche.  The town of Tupper really needs a boost

Also it would seem like maybe your u could get Clarkson and StL university’s to invest to use for their  ski teams and students use.

Coach,  It is more likely that the current Mortgage holder (OWD Liquidating Trust) will foreclose on ACR rather than loosing the property and watching it go to auction through the county. But that is only on the large parcel that the ACR was proposing all the Great Camp lots and other smaller homes/condos/quarter shares etc.

Since ACR currently owns the ski area then maybe someone could pick it up at a county tax auction. But back in early 2010, 3 different entities took Mortgages against the area for a total of $1.2M  The largest was for $600K The others were for $200K and $400K. Since it is unlikely ACR paid off any of those investors any one of them may pay the taxes to protect their interests.

ORDA would be a nice option but I don't see it happening. Even though it would take a small fraction of what NYS is spending on Frontier Town.

x10003q wrote

Peter Minde wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Z wrote

 

Orda is talking about spending $32 million on Mt VanHo for a new lodge which is just a stupid idea.  

Coach we need to remember this is NYS we're talking about. The same state that wants to do away with the regents diploma to increase graduation rates. HUH?? Like wow, that makes zero sense.

Gotta disagree on this.  After ~ 40 years of benign neglect, it's time to bring Mt van Ho into the present.

$60 MILLION  on Mt Van Ho???? Wow
https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2019/06/van-ho-price-tag-goes-up/

"Michael Pratt, CEO of the state Olympic Regional Development Authority, said last week that upgrades at Mount Van Hoevenberg’s Olympic Sports Complex are now expected to reach upward of $60 million. A new 30,000-square-foot, three-story base lodge will cost $32 million by itself, Pratt said. "

It's kind of amazing. Most Olympic "winners" start the wasteful spending for facilities that may never be used again (re: Sochi, or the next Winter Olympics in China in a place WHERE IT DOESN'T SNOW!) once they are assured they'll at least host the Olympics, but, NY State spends this enormous sum (3 STORIES LODGE?) Just, well, because, why not?

We all know our idiot governor likes fancy new lodges but besides Peter the XC guy does anyone really think it’s a good move to make Mt Vanho the most expensive built out XC ski area on the planet?  Oh and the Gov gets his Mt coasters that got dinged for his WF plans.

Spending this on top of Frontiertown is just nuts.  It is part of the mitigating hiking answer in the Govs mind.  Once Mt Vanho and Frontiertown is done I would not be surprised to see the state close all parking along rt 73 and force you to park at one of those two locations then bus hikers to trailheads most likely for a fee.

Back to the Tupper topic if our drunker sailor Gov is doing this how is Tupper or Platy supposed to compete?  Orda needs to take over Tupper and use the Mt Vanho money to get it up and running.  The gore and WF Gondis going in in 1999 were the straw that broke Tupper back.  Orda needs to make that right.

Z wrote

 I would not be surprised to see the state close all parking along rt 73 and force you to park at one of those two locations then bus hikers to trailheads most likely for a fee..

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Z wrote

Route 73 has become extremely dangerous and is really the major route in and out trucks that supply the area as well as the tourists themselves

Today there were 15 tourists including little kids standing on a two foot wide shoulder taking photos in a 55 mph zone.  These people have absolutely zero common sense.

....

Z wrote

spend it on increasing supply for tourists by creating affordable housing for lower level employees and parking and shuttles for lower impact hiking

So, you're complaining that they'll shut down parking and switch to buses in this thread, but in the other thread, you're encouraging shutting down parking and switching to buses?

The parking issue is real and needs a solution.  My point is MC your Gov Cuomo is going to use it as an excuse to do his fav thing - spend money on stupid stuff.

And is he does it it will be way more expensive than a parking lot and a bus plus he will take the heavy handed approach and ban all parking from 73

Z wrote

  Orda needs to take over Tupper and use the Mt Vanho money to get it up and running.  The gore and WF Gondis going in in 1999 were the straw that broke Tupper back.  Orda needs to make that right.

You keep repeating this nonsense. IT IS FALSE. Read this post from Oct, 2016, if you want to understand.
https://forum.nyskiblog.com/ACR-Back-in-the-news-ADE-8-11-and-8-12-tp4085767p4090103.html

Big Tupper was bankrupt twice before ORDA started spending on Gore/WF in 1999.
In the 1980s the town board in Tupper Lake tried to get ORDA to take over BT and ORDA rejected the idea.
You can read about that here:
https://forum.nyskiblog.com/ACR-Back-in-the-news-ADE-8-11-and-8-12-tp4085767p4090187.html

Big Tupper is nothing more than a small local's mountain. It has been off the radar since the mid 1990s. It no longer has snowmaking and is missing a main lift. It needs too much money to make it viable. When ACR sold off the snow making equipment they nailed the coffin closed. Sadly, it is over for BT.

x10003q wrote

Z wrote

  Orda needs to take over Tupper and use the Mt Vanho money to get it up and running.  The gore and WF Gondis going in in 1999 were the straw that broke Tupper back.  Orda needs to make that right.

You keep repeating this nonsense. IT IS FALSE. Read this post from Oct, 2016, if you want to understand.
https://forum.nyskiblog.com/ACR-Back-in-the-news-ADE-8-11-and-8-12-tp4085767p4090103.html

Big Tupper was bankrupt twice before ORDA started spending on Gore/WF in 1999.
In the 1980s the town board in Tupper Lake tried to get ORDA to take over BT and ORDA rejected the idea.
You can read about that here:
https://forum.nyskiblog.com/ACR-Back-in-the-news-ADE-8-11-and-8-12-tp4085767p4090187.html

Big Tupper is nothing more than a small local's mountain. It has been off the radar since the mid 1990s. It no longer has snowmaking and is missing a main lift. It needs too much money to make it viable. When ACR sold off the snow making equipment they nailed the coffin closed. Sadly, it is over for BT.

Exactly

Z wrote

We all know our idiot governor likes fancy new lodges but besides Peter the XC guy does anyone really think it’s a good move to make Mt Vanho the most expensive built out XC ski area on the planet?  Oh and the Gov gets his Mt coasters that got dinged for his WF plans.

Spending this on top of Frontiertown is just nuts.  It is part of the mitigating hiking answer in the Govs mind.  Once Mt Vanho and Frontiertown is done I would not be surprised to see the state close all parking along rt 73 and force you to park at one of those two locations then bus hikers to trailheads most likely for a fee.

Back to the Tupper topic if our drunker sailor Gov is doing this how is Tupper or Platy supposed to compete?  Orda needs to take over Tupper and use the Mt Vanho money to get it up and running.  The gore and WF Gondis going in in 1999 were the straw that broke Tupper back.  Orda needs to make that right.

With climate change impacting the northeast, it makes sense to install traditional snowmaking at Mt van Ho.  The Snow Factory is a good start but even Techno Alpin recommends that the Snow Factory should augment a traditional snow gun setup.  No snowmaking, van Ho is going to lose visitor days big time to places like Craftsbury and Middlebury.

My understanding regarding the lodge is that it's going to be a hikers' resource to relieve overcrowding elsewhere, as well as a winter resource.  Go to van Ho at Christmas week or President's week, the current lodge is more crowded than the NY subway at rush hour.

The World University Games wouldn't be coming to Lake Placid without these long overdue infrastructure improvements at Mt van Ho.  When that comes off successfully, ORDA might see the financial  benefit of bidding for World Cup biathlon or XC.

[ADDENDUM] I forgot to add:  snowmaking and a new lodge have been part of the Unit Master Plan for Mt van Ho since 1986.

I could live without the mountain coaster but I understand ORDA's desire to leverage the place for summer use.

Z wrote

 My point is MC your Gov Cuomo

My Governor?

Isn't he your governor, too?

At least, that's what people on politicrap used to tell me about someone else....

North Country Public Radio put out a story on the ACR situation yesterday. Nothing new, just a rehash of the ADE article, Brian Mann(reporter) just interviewed the ADE reporter.  One interesting line was that the ADE reporter said he talked to Lawson back in January or February of this year and Lawson told him he had some "big news coming up" but he wasn't ready to talk about it. We can now see what the big news was and why he wasn't ready to talk about it.

The ADE reporter also says that the ACR owes money to 3 main parties, their lawyers, Franklin county taxes and Greg Norman. While that is true, none of the recent press stories on this mentions the fact that the ACR never paid the OWD corp for the land, I guess $5.2M isn't worth mentioning?

How do I start a business where I acquire a ski area, then sit on it for many years while making vague promises and deferring all payments (including taxes)?

Amazingly, the people behind this won't go to prison, and they'll move right on to the next scheme.

Quite a system we have.

Money = power

MC2 5678F589 wrote

How do I start a business where I acquire a ski area, then sit on it for many years while making vague promises and deferring all payments (including taxes)?

Amazingly, the people behind this won't go to prison, and they'll move right on to the next scheme.

Quite a system we have.

The desperation of the local and regional governments for jobs/development opens the door to unfunded clowns. The  delusion that Big Tupper could ever be a centerpiece of a 700 unit development also allowed for this to happen.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

How do I start a business where I acquire a ski area, then sit on it for many years while making vague promises and deferring all payments (including taxes)?

Amazingly, the people behind this won't go to prison, and they'll move right on to the next scheme.

Quite a system we have.

I thought you were all for getting money for doing nothing. These guys should be your hero’s.

Your revisionist history is interesting
MC Your lawyer buddies in Protect thru legal barriers and bs for what 10 years with the sole purpose of bankrupting Tupper
It forced them to miss the economic window many times over and when they finally got the go ahead they had no money left
The guys going to jail should be those a hole lawyers at Protect.  Our legal system in NY is a mess if you can throw endless nuisance law suits up and if they lose the suing party does not have to pay the winners legal bills.

The real losers of course are the people that live in Tupper and skiers that are missing out on skiing there.

Z wrote

Your revisionist history is interesting
MC Your lawyer buddies in Protect thru legal barriers and bs for what 10 years with the sole purpose of bankrupting Tupper.

I ummm... don't have lawyer buddies at Protect the ADKs, nor do I know anyone who works with them. I have not given them any donations, nor do I know what the hell you're talking about. Weird that you would attack me. Must be getting towards ski forum silly season (September/October).

My position on Tupper has always been the same. I think this was from 2012:

MC2 5678F589 wrote

And I don't wish failure on anyone. I want Big Tupper to succeed wildly. If the ACR is the way to do that, then cool, I'm for the ACR.

But I feel like the mountain needs some serious money to be sunk into improvements and it doesn't really seem like that's a priority for the ACR people

Z wrote

Your revisionist history is interesting
MC Your lawyer buddies in Protect thru legal barriers and bs for what 10 years with the sole purpose of bankrupting Tupper
It forced them to miss the economic window many times over and when they finally got the go ahead they had no money left
The guys going to jail should be those a hole lawyers at Protect.  Our legal system in NY is a mess if you can throw endless nuisance law suits up and if they lose the suing party does not have to pay the winners legal bills.

The real losers of course are the people that live in Tupper and skiers that are missing out on skiing there.

Do you really think a 650 ft vertical ski hill in the middle of nowhere could ever support the sale of 700 plus housing units? The whole project was a scam.

The developers never had any money of their own and could never borrow any money from private lenders. They were planning to borrow public money to build about 25 great camps, make some money and then leave. The town, county (and public) would have been left holding the bag for the borrowed money and the mess they would have left. They were NEVER going to get Big Tupper on line because the first thing they did to Big Tupper was sell off the operating parts of the relatively unused snowmaking system for pennies on the dollar.

Quite Right ! Much as i loved BT in the day that. Entire project was a pipe dream . The scope was patently insane , the concept was a Hail Mary and the assumption that the local rubes would bend over and assume long term public debt for it was specious .

That said BT was a fun place to ski in the day but never a serious contender for  anything but modest improvement and development at best .