Bindings for Next Season

Maybe I should go back and try to understand the Marker Duke vs Fritschi thread. But... I didn't.

I've already got my money down on some Worth Skis for next season (98mm).  Still trying to decide on bindings and to some extent, where I am going in the future.

I have this feeling that if I go to an AT binding, it adds MORE to what I can do.  I know that for resort skiing they might be less durable, but for my 30-35 days a season - if all of those were on an AT binding - wouldn't they last 3 years?  They've got to be a s durable as a tele binding ... or no?  

Honestly at 53+ I care more about my own durability than my gear.  I want to maximize my fun and stay in the game.

One thing that I think about often, are days like Plattekill 10/30/11.  When the snow is inconsistently grabby, it's hard as hell (for me) to keep from going over the handlebars. (See tBatt's pics from the forum post from that Plattekill day - doh!).  That and fatter, tip rockered skis - I think -  might help keep me on my feet.

AT binding on my new skis? Which one?

I dream of the Chic Chocs - what would be the setup for a trip like that?

Obviously I have to make some decisions for myself soon. But would like to hear what others think.

For me (who is not you), it all comes down to this when selecting gear: what is the best product for what I am going to be doing MOST of the time? For all the other times (and possible times) you make a compromise or buy/rent specific equipment for that occasion.

If you are MOSTLY skiing lift-served terrain and occasionally skinning up a short pitch, the Duke/Barons, Salomon or Fritschi make sense. Get whatever is the best deal and live with it. DIN setting may be a factor as well. Other way, look at Dynafits but then you need dedicated AT boots ($$$).

I think ML's post in the linked thread pretty much sums it up.

I didn't know you were serious about fixing the heel. I think I remember hearing you mulling it over as an option.

How much do you tour? Any interest in still doing touring on tele?

I have Fritschi Freerides and Dynafit Vertical 12s. I wouldn't bring either to a resort. I have skied with my Freerides on piste and they just aren't the same performance wise as a dedicated alpine binding. Maybe newer Fritschi's are better, I don't know. I trust them less and ski more conservative on them than alpine bindings. I also weigh 220 without gear and really torque my gear when turning, so your mileage may vary.

As SBR notes, Dynafits would also require AT boots with tech inserts. You'll need downhill boots either way but AT boots are more expensive than alpines, especially with tech inserts, and their performance is generally less than standard alpine boots.

Would an AT binding last three years doing 30-35 resort days a season? Sure. Would it be the best tool for the job? In the case of Fritschi or Dynafit, no. The beef AT bindings are the better tool for that job but they come with a weight penalty. I tour less than ten days a season but still have a dedicated touring setup. Of course, that gets expensive.

I reread ml's post and sbr you're right - it would make a good blog post on the topic.

I'm seriously thinking about adding fixed heels to my options. I get a new pair of skis about every 3rd year.  Right now I've got 2 years on the Pilgrims (90mm). It's a good groomer setup and bumped out trees, and even 10 or 12 inches of snow if it's not too dense.

It's days like last October at Plattekill when I need an advantage. I personally work very hard on those skis when there is thick or inconsistent new snow.  I'm thinking, fixed heel, fatter and some rocker is a great alternative, BUT not if I can't tour.  This way I could always choose between the two setups.

Are Fritschi and Marker ... is it really a choice between those two brands?  Any other players?

ml - the deadspot you referred to in your original post - that's something you don't feel on a standard alpine setup?

Disclaimer: I accept that there is a chance that like so many before me, I'll become an alpine skier. I feel like I've got to give it a shot now, while I'd have two different, working setups.

I've got a cool option for you, which I may be doing since I'm having some leg issues still.  There are these things out there called Quiver Killers.  They are like the inserts K2 used to put on their tele skis.  I have been using them for 2 years now.  I have more skis than tele bindings, so I put inserts in all the skis and just swap the bindings around.  I helped a buddy mount quiver killers inserts on his skis last year.  We set them up so he can swap his Alpine and Tele bindings.  So, just buy some bindings and boots and put quiver killers on all your skis and you can use the skis for both tele and alpine.  

Then no deliberation on what to do with those new Worth skis.

You may not be able to find anyone to mount the quiver killers though.  I did speak to Jeff Palka about them last year and he sounded interested, but don't know if he looked into them any farther.  If this is a problem, let me know.  I almost have a ski shop in my basement.

If you aren't going to do a lot of touring, the Marker Duke is more alpine than touring.  My friends in Colorado use the Dukes on their daily skis.  Atomic and Solomon are coming out with a very similar AT binding this year.  I picked up a pair of Dukes, because of the price, but haven't fully committed yet to getting boots too.

Harvey44 wrote

Are Fritschi and Marker ... is it really a choice between those two brands?  Any other players?

The reference to Salomon in my earlier post was not accidental. The binding king is introducing a Duke-like product called the Guardian (or Atomic Tracker, same thing with a different paint job). Check an early review on Blister Gear Review.

If I were in your boots, and couldn't lay down the $$$ for NTN, I would get the Salomon Guardian and a pair of boots like the Salomon Quest, Atomic Tracker 100 or Technica Cochise. Just my $0.02.

Another boot choice is the Nordica "Hell & Back".  The Atomic/Solomon binding looks pretty slick.

Why bother with a fixed heel, Harv? It's kind of a pain at Gore. Think about hiking up to highline, stepping around a tree, or poling across a traverse - Tele is way better for the mountain (plus more fun IMO). I really only like the alpine setup on firm days or early season days (or when I'm charging on mountains bigger than Gore). But it doesn't sound like you got a carving ski.

You'd probably mostly be using the fixed heel Worths on deep snow BC days (and a couple of resort days if you don't find those things I mentioned above to be dealbreakers).  I guess, that being the case, I'd go Tech binding.

I love my Black Diamond Factor 130 AT Boots.  Got a great deal on a year old boot last fall.  I bought the tech soles too, but never used them last year.  I am a lifelong alpine skier who would like to tour more.  I needed new boots and I don't think I'm sacrificing anything on the down with these boots.  Of course, I know they're bricks compared to some other tech AT boots out there, but for my purposes, I think they were the best boot I could get.

mattchuck2 wrote

Why bother with a fixed heel, Harv? It's kind of a pain at Gore. Think about hiking up to highline, stepping around a tree, or poling across a traverse - Tele is way better for the mountain (plus more fun IMO). I really only like the alpine setup on firm days or early season days (or when I'm charging on mountains bigger than Gore).

This is what I am struggling with - very well said.

mattchuck2 wrote

But it doesn't sound like you got a carving ski.

LOL the Worth guys have a whole different way to measure it.

Maybe the extra width would help me in deeper THICK snow, even if mounted tele.  In fact I'm sure the would.  I'm just a bit gunshy I guess after my injury.  The snow was really manky, and it felt like I could make my skis go the way I wanted.  Somehow I felt that if I was floating more it would have been easier to turn.

Then there is the whole over the handlebars thing. Alpine skiers - do fixed heels actually help keep you from going forward? It seems that logically it would, but I have no experience.

While I hate to wait, maybe I should demo something alpine. I'd need boots for that, but Gear Source could probably handle.  The problem with that is that I'm either waiting for some real snow to fall, or I'm demoing on firm early season groomers.

Harvey44 wrote

Then there is the whole over the handlebars thing. Alpine skiers - do fixed heels actually help keep you from going forward? It seems that logically it would, but I have no experience.

I wouldn't say that alpine bindings "help keep you from going forward" (a la over the handlebars). I just don't like the way that is worded. But I guess you could look at it that way. If your skis are weighted and your center of gravity is thrust forward unexpectedly, you are more likely to release from your bindings than go over the handlebars. It basically becomes a giant lever with a release point built in. You can still go over the handlebars on alpine skis but it is a pretty rare way to go down, especially with your skis still attached. I'd say it is easier to do in bumps in which weighting the ski the wrong way at the wrong time could produce a force that might catapult you up and over. But if you keep your skis on the snow and weighted, it is pretty rare. The short answer is the problem you struggle with would certainly be resolved with alpine skis, though you'd need to adapt to a different technique...

Most alpine skiers fail to progress beyond terminal intermediate because they don't get a few fundamentals. Once of those fundamentals is "getting forward" on your skis. I imagine with tele, you want to stay fairly centered. But with alpine, you want that heel pushed back, pulled down, and your shins driving forward pressure.

Maybe you should do a rental at Gore once it opens this winter and try it once or twice? It would be a shame if you bought new boots and bindings and drilled your skis and then decided it wasn't for you.

riverc0il wrote

I imagine with tele, you want to stay fairly centered.

This is what I struggle with when the snow is grabby.  Your suppose to keep forward - but evenly weighted - not be back on your tails so you're riding a fine line.

Tele newbies often have far too much weight up front and that can lead to falling forward.  When I'm skiing well I'm evenly weighted. It usually takes me 8-10 ski days into the season to get to where I need to be, which was one reason I struggled at Plattekill (10/30/11). Limited floatation, grabby snow, and early season form.

One thing is for sure, falling forward, or any direction, with skis that aren't attached, scares me a hell of a lot less.

Harvey - I've been skiing telemark about 95% of the time for the past several seasons but share your distrust of the free heel for grabby, soft, manky conditions - so for a late spring trip to the PNW last season, brought my alpine gear, no regrets.  Also have problems on tele gear in true breakable crust conditions, while I watched friends on AT gear bash through it much more easily.  Again, could be skill, but the locked heels couldn't hurt.

So I'm setting up an AT setup this summer for basically the same reasons you mentioned but with a slight twist: I started with NTN boots that have tech fittings and can be used with Dynafit or compatible bindings.  Scarpa TX in my case (3 buckle); Scarpa also makes a 4-buckle boot called the TX Pro, and I think Crispi also makes a Dynafit-compatible boot.  I just picked up a pair of G3 Onyx bindings from backcountry.com.  

All my tele gear is 75 mm but when I found a good deal on these boots earlier in the summer it seemed like the right step.  Very interested in the new NTN Freedom binding (lighter weight NTN with greater range of motion at the pivot) but I'll wait a bit and see how it works out for the early adopters, it seems like there are often issues with first generation products.

ts01 wrote

Harvey - I've been skiing telemark about 95% of the time for the past several seasons but share your distrust of the free heel for grabby, soft, manky conditions - so for a late spring trip to the PNW last season, brought my alpine gear, no regrets.  Also have problems on tele gear in true breakable crust conditions, while I watched friends on AT gear bash through it much more easily.  Again, could be skill, but the locked heels couldn't hurt.

So I'm setting up an AT setup this summer for basically the same reasons you mentioned but with a slight twist: I started with NTN boots that have tech fittings and can be used with Dynafit or compatible bindings.  Scarpa TX in my case (3 buckle); Scarpa also makes a 4-buckle boot called the TX Pro, and I think Crispi also makes a Dynafit-compatible boot.  I just picked up a pair of G3 Onyx bindings from backcountry.com.  

All my tele gear is 75 mm but when I found a good deal on these boots earlier in the summer it seemed like the right step.  Very interested in the new NTN Freedom binding (lighter weight NTN with greater range of motion at the pivot) but I'll wait a bit and see how it works out for the early adopters, it seems like there are often issues with first generation products.

Ok so I'm not crazy. (Or at least this thread doesn't prove it:)

So that set up can ski alpine, AT or tele?

If I can ask - how much did the NTN setup cost?  Could you snap a picture of the boots in the bindings and post it?

ts01 wrote

So I'm setting up an AT setup this summer for basically the same reasons you mentioned but with a slight twist: I started with NTN boots that have tech fittings and can be used with Dynafit or compatible bindings.  Scarpa TX in my case (3 buckle) . . .   Very interested in the new NTN Freedom binding . . .

I think I recommended this exact setup in another thread.  The deal is, you buy the NTN Boots,  then you buy dynafit bindings, and if you hate having your heel locked down, you sell the dynafits (to me) and then replace with NTN Freedom bindings.

The caveat is that with the dynafit/ntn hybrid setup, the bellows of the NTN boot might flex out on you, so you really don't get the true fixed heel experience (with a stiff, hard boot and a bomber connection to the binding). Also, I make no guarantees that this setup will work for hard charging.  I haven't heard too much about it (just some random forum posts like this, where the system has some mixed reviews - some people have success, some don't), so it's still in experimentation phase.

Harvey44 wrote

Ok so I'm not crazy. (Or at least this thread doesn't prove it:)

So that set up can ski alpine, AT or tele?

If I can ask - how much did the NTN setup cost?  Could you snap a picture of the boots in the bindings and post it?


It's still a work in progress - boots in hand, bindings on UPS, and not yet mounted, so no pics.

I'm aiming for just a pure AT setup - but folks have experimented with an NTN binding + tech AT (dynafit or G3) heelpiece nicknamed the "frankentele" that allows switching from free heel to fixed.  Some weight penalty and questions re releasability.  But the main source on this - "Jarlybart" on telemarktips.com -- reports it releases as needed.  Here's a start - http://www.newtelemarkguide.com/wiki/FrankenTele - but also search "frankentele" on telemarktips and TGR forums for full info.  Also, this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQvp7P4EEnQ - and a few others on youtube.

Costs - I found a pair of Scarpa TX on TGR gear swap with about 15 days use, very good condition, for $225 shipped.  General asking price used is $200 - 300.  Bindings - G3 Onyx for a little under $300 at bc.com, plus around $50 for brakes. (Not necessary if you want to use a leash instead).  Note, the G3 Ruby - "women's" version -- is the same binding with slightly lower release values and totally acceptable graphics.  Dynafits tend to be pricier - best prices I saw were at telemarkdown.com and Telemark Pyrenees.

mattchuck2 wrote

The caveat is that with the dynafit/ntn hybrid setup, the bellows of the NTN boot might flex out on you, so you really don't get the true fixed heel experience (with a stiff, hard boot and a bomber connection to the binding). Also, I make no guarantees that this setup will work for hard charging.  I haven't heard too much about it (just some random forum posts like this, where the system has some mixed reviews - some people have success, some don't), so it's still in experimentation phase.

Yup, I'm expecting a bit of fiddling, but have read enough positive accounts that I'm pretty confident it will be workable.  The boots come with a shim for use in ski mode to prevent bellows flex, and G3 also sells a shim that's meant to snap into the Onyx or Ruby.  There are some AT boots with flexing bellows for walk-mode comfort (Scarpa F1 ?) so this is not just an NTN-boot quirk but something the tech binding manufacturers have taken into account for the AT market.  

the recent Powder mag noted that they did not profile a single tele set up this year. everyone has switched to AT. a few years ago, the president of Voile skis stated that he believed that tele would be nearly extinct in a few years as the new marker AT bindings made backcountry skiing available to anybody. he was right. before the tele purists start howling about their beloved sport, let me say that this is similiar to the vinyl vs digital debate or the debate between skinny skis and fat skis. so far, shaped skis, fat skis, and rocker have turned out pretty well. i think AT is another innovation which will which will only expand your fun.  tele will always have their devotees but it requires a very specific skill set which is difficult to master. tele skiers love its uniqueness. there is nothing wrong with that. i think that you will enjoy the locked heel. Harv, you sound like you are feeling guilty about switching to a new girlfriend. make the switch. you can always grovel later and ask to be taken back.

LOL.  I've got no guilt about anything. Ski related. Except maybe the amount of gas I burn to do it.  I'm getting old (!) and I'm wondering if this is the time to switch.

I don't think I'm the kind of guy who would have both kind of bindings in my quiver and would choose based on the day. I own several pairs of skis but each time I get a new pair, that's the only pair I use. I don't know how guys like SBR and Matt switch back and forth so effortlessly.

I have no doubt that on icy steep groomers alpine gear is easier.  I'm finding hard to believe I have the skills to ski bumps on fixed heels, and I think I'd be very vulnerable to injury in the trees on fixed heels.  I love the trees most. This season was problematic for me. Due to weather I didn't get in there much and when I finally did I was so rusty. I sucked last year.

Another thing I love about tele is the ability to use my ankles. It feels very free.  The down side is that I think that if I had spent the last ten years on alpine gear skiing as hard as I do, I'd be able to keep up with darkside shaman, chuck and all the rippers at Gore who so kindly wait for me as I bring up the rear.

Harvey44 wrote

 I don't know how guys like SBR and Matt switch back and forth so effortlessly.

You are a skier, you'll figure it out. It is not that hard.

Harvey44 wrote

.... I think I'd be very vulnerable to injury in the trees on fixed heels.  I love the trees most.

The turning radius on alpine is waaayyyy shorter than tele. This is a good thing in the trees. Tele in the trees in Japan would be fun but in the east, I'd prefer alpine.

Harvey44 wrote

Another thing I love about tele is the ability to use my ankles. It feels very free.  The down side is that I think that if I had spent the last ten years on alpine gear skiing as hard as I do, I'd be able to keep up with darkside shaman, chuck and all the rippers at Gore who so kindly wait for me as I bring up the rear.

You are overthinking this. When you switch to alpine you will make a quantum leap and keep up with those folks in short order. Save tele for the mellow days. Come to the dark side, Luke. Embrace the multiglisse. Who knows, maybe we'll get you on a snowboard.