NYSkiBlog Forum Archive › Woodstove Archive

Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Classic

List

Threaded

23 messages Options

Harvey

Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Administrator

The VT SAR thread got me thinking again about charging for Search and Rescue.

I'm not exactly sure how NYSB and TGR forum member From_The_NEK does for a living, or what mountain he works for, or if he even works for a mountain... but he posted this on TGR and I thought it was interesting. It relates to HOW you'd decide whether to charge for rescue. Would like to hear your thoughts.

From_The_NEK wrote

For those that may have missed it earlier, I came up with a strategy for charging not charging for rescue last week. Once a few people get hit in the pocket to get rescued the word will get around pretty quick and fewer of these idiots will leave the resort boundaries.

Easy way to determine charge/no charge for rescue:
The State Police create a panel (Or group of specially trained officers) that is responsible for interviewing the rescuees immediately upon rescue. They have a standard checklist of questions that goes through some basic backcountry preparedness (I'm using "backcountry" loosely here).

Question 1: Describe you "backcountry skiing" plan.
1a. Where were you starting?
1b. What time were you starting?
1c. Where did you plan to exit the backcountry?
1d. What time did you plan to exit the backcountry?
1e. Did anyone else know what your plan was?

Question 2: Is anyone in your group familiar with this specific terrain and/or skied it before?
2a. Were they involved in creating the plan from Question 1?

Question 3: Do you have basic supplies to survive overnight in the backcountry (food, water, firestarter) and can you show them to me? (Must provide proof that a fire was started and food wrappers/containers if supplies were used prior to rescue.)

Question 4: Did you or a member of your group experience a major equipment failure or sustain an injury that made completing your plan from question 1 impossible?

The panel then works with the resort Ski Patrol to review the answers to question 1. If there is no plan or the plan does not make sense (e.g. you can’t get to point B from point A) = LARGE CHARGE. And end of analysis.

If they had a real plan and pass question 1, then the panel considers the answer to questions 2, 3, and 4.
If the interviewee answers “yes” to Question 2 and 3 they are not charged.
If they answer “no” to either 2 or 3 = SMALL CHARGE.

Answering “Yes” to question 4 wipes out any “no” answers for 2 and 3. This falls into “These guys had a plan. Although they could have been better prepared, they had some bad luck and needed help to get out.” = NO CHARGE

This solution does have a bit of bureaucracy to it. However it is expedited bureaucracy in that I feel the determination of financial charges can be decided in the lodge within an hour or two after the rescue is complete.
I'm not sure what the scale of financial charges that the State Police have but haven't been enforcing is.
However, I would set it at: Large Charge = $1000/person. Small Charge = $500/person. This likely wouldn't pay for the whole rescue process but it would help defray costs a bit.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Face4Me

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Harvey44 wrote

I'm not exactly sure how NYSB and TGR forum member From_The_NEK does for a living, or what mountain he works for, or if he even works for a mountain... but he posted this on TGR and I thought it was interesting. It relates to HOW you'd decide whether to charge for rescue. Would like to hear your thoughts.

How about a "pre-registration" process, where you would have to file a plan, in advance, detailing your planned activities. Failure to do so, or venturing into the back country on a plan that was not approved, would result in a charge for any rescue related costs.

Without going into details, I'm a member of an organization that requires us to file a trip plan for any trips we take. The details include who is going, the nature of the trip, depending upon the nature of the trip, you must specify which individual(s) have the required training certifications (first aid, CPR, etc), method of travel, etc, etc, etc.

Taking a trip without an approved plan can result in loss of liability coverage, etc.

It's all done online, and takes very little time to complete.

It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!

gorgonzola

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

i don't see all the need for that - just make 'em pay. if your talking resort skiiing put the language right on the ticket/release - you wanna play, you get lost, you pay!
the review board sounds reasonable for backcountry public land/parks. hhhmmmm maybe a new cottage industry, bc triple a!

MC2 5678F589

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by Harvey

First of all, question 2 is stupid. Why does somebody in the group need to have done the trip before? What happened to the idea of exploration? Did Columbus make sure he had some Vikings on board who had already been to North America?

Question 3 is dumb too. Every time you go beyond a ski area boundary, you need enough gear to last the night? What?!? So whenever I want to ski The Dip at Jay, I have to bring a backpack full of crap?

Also, it seems to me that if a "major equipment failure or injury" meant that you didn't need to pay anything, people would just rip their bindings out or complain of a mysterious knee injury when they got rescued.

I guess I'd be inclined to just make them pay, regardless of circumstance. Call for help = pay the bill for the help. That's how it works for plumbers, why shouldn't it work that way for rescue?

Of course, this kind of situation might lead to cut-rate rescue services that would be cheaper than DEC, State Police, etc. I have no problem with allowing the free market to operate in this case as long as these cut-rate services are licensed (a license that is revoked if they themselves ever have to call for help).

skimore

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by Harvey

Well then almost all of those people would have failed that survey. Majority of them had no intentions of a BC experience.They were just looking for fresh tracks and got turned around

campgottagopee

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

That whole thing seems cumbersome. If someone gets lost skiing OB at a resort there should be a fine/fee attached to that. If someone is planning a BC trip, I'd like to think they would use common sense and tell somebody where they are going and what time they should be back.
We do it all the time hunting---walk in camp and there will be a note, "up in swamp .... radio on channel 14 ..... back by dark". We've had to go look for peeps, but only cause they've fallen asleep.

skimore

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by skimore

Should the bonehead who fell asleep with a lb of bacon in the frying pan get a bill from the fire dept?

MC2 5678F589

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

skimore wrote

Should the bonehead who fell asleep with a lb of bacon in the frying pan get a bill from the fire dept?

Some places are doing that... Remember the story a couple of years ago when that guy didn't pay his $50 a year "fire surcharge" or whatever and the fire department showed up to watch his house burn and protect the houses of his neighbors (who did pay the surcharge).

Seems to me that we're moving towards a society that claims "personal responsibility" as its number 1 priority. Charging people for the costs they accrued to rescue them is just one more step in that direction. The really funny part is going to be when they start offering options over the phone:

"We could pick you up right now in a helicopter, but that's going to cost you. Here are the prices to be picked up by snowmobile, dogsled, and search party. You can choose which is the most cost effective for you. Right now, we're running a special. Pay up front for 2 rescues, get the 3rd free."

skimore

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

that must have been an interesting scene

ScottyJack

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

mattchuck2 wrote

First of all, question 2 is stupid. Why does somebody in the group need to have done the trip before? What happened to the idea of exploration? Did Columbus make sure he had some Vikings on board who had already been to North America?

that's funny chit right there!!

Internet back country "expert" skiers can suck it!

You funny MC2!!

I ride with Crazy Horse!

Adk Jeff

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by skimore

I'm generally against the idea of pay-for-rescue. However, Tony Goodwin (editor of the Adk Mtn Club's High Peaks guidebook) proposed the idea of fining hikers (or skiers) in cases of gross carelessness. I think his proposal makes a lot of sense. You can read more about it here:

Lost Hikers Urinate on Each Other to Keep Warm Overnight

DackerDan

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

This topic has been debated adnausium in other forums. To try to assess whether or not a person is qualified to be in the BC is a hard thing, should we have a BC skier/hiker liscense with a qualification tests? Should we charge a users fee to cover SAR? There are a lot of ideas. I believe that you either charge everyone or no one. Collecting fees by some subjective judgement can easily be contested in court, look at how easy it is to get a speeding ticket thrown out or reduced and that is not subjective at all.

I:)skiing

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Most of Europe charges full price of rescue. If you venture out, you buy insurance.....about $3.00/day.

I don't have a problem with this. Charge everyone, but allow the charging authority waive or reduce fees as they see fit. It will be done by government and they are corrupt so nothing different.

Issue on collection of fine solved by immediate confiscation of equipment including boots until paid. No lift tickets at any NY resort until a payment plan is enacted and kept current. Only flaw would be someone paying cash......but that is life. No season pass until paid in full.

Don't have a problem w volunteer fire companies letting homes burn if someone neither volunteers in community or ponies up what fee they can afford. Too many people sucking on the teet of society letting the suckers pay. Think how much a volunteer fire dept and rescue saves a homeowner in taxeseach year.

Harvey

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Administrator

Probably everything humans discuss has been done ad nauseum. I found this interesting because of the whole personal responsibility thing MC mentions. (Plus the Viking comment alone is worth the electrons used up by the entire thread!)

We clearly don't have enough money to pay for everything we want to do in society and we've got to figure out ways to pay by usage, in my opinion. The suckers who pay comment rings true for me. Our town sent around a semi-threatening email about replacing all your substandard sidewalk or the town was going to do it an charge you a bundle on your taxes. $2000 later my sidewalk to nowhere (doesn't connect to anything on either end of the property) was brand new but the town never followed through on fixing or charging the rest. SUCKER!

With the volunteer fire thing... charge everyone a fire tax - not optional - just like road tax or whatever - and waive it for volunteers.

It's like anything else - society doesn't allow us to let people die, and stuff ain't free so you gotta charge. Maybe everyone gets charged costs, but if you totally go off the hook and don't think it through at all you pay an extra bonehead tax that does more than cover costs, it discourages and penalizes putting peoples lives at risk without any thought.

Ski areas already have insurance, and I'm sure you are paying that in the cost of a lift ticket. Maybe add $3 to each ticket for SAR.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Benny Profane

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by I:)skiing

I:)skiing wrote

If you venture out, you buy insurance.....about $3.00/day.

About the best I've heard. That, and the shock collars on all gapers.

Seriously, if we start charging, we're going to be reading about dead people instead of embarrassed gapers the next morning. There will be a hesitation that will kill. Maybe you can write that off to darwin if you wish, but, I don't know.

Shock collars. It's the best way. Turn them up to eleven.

funny like a clown

tjf1967

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

It would be easier and cut out a lot of administrative expence if you just charged for the rescue. You could charge a flat fee per rescue. Take the amount of money spent on pulling people out the year before divide it by the number of calls and there is your flat fee for the next year. Just keep changing it each year. The cost would be out for all to see. If they decide to enter the backcountry and need assistance they know the price. If some dumb ass dies cause he did not want to call.. well one less dumbass in the world.

From_The_NEK

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

Remember that Questions 2 and 3 don't even come into play unless the answer to Question 1 is acceptable. And failing to answer yes to these questions results in the lower fine amount. After discussion on other boards I would lower the fine amounts to $500 and $250 in order to reduce any hesitation to call for help.

For question 2 it would be helpful to know that someone with a bit of experience may or may not have been leading the group off into the cabbage patch. And Columbus would likely have been better off with Vikings on board. They could have shown him how to get to better skiing ground than the Caribbean.

Question 3 is of course you don't need to have all of that gear every time you go OoB. If you have a solid plan and know where you are going (e.g. Dip) you will know what supplies you will/will not need to get from point A to point B. The point of this question is that if you just randomly ski off into unfamiliar territory with no idea where you are going or how long you are going to be there, you need to be prepared if not you pay.

Again assuming the answer to question 1 was acceptable and the point of major equipment failure or injury waving the fine. Sure they could lie about a phantom knee injury or smash a ski on a tree until it breaks (although the replacement cost would likely be more $ than the fine). On the other hand, how many of these guys would actually know ahead of time that equipment failure or injury would get them off without a fine?

Maybe just a flat $300 fine for rescuing anybody regardless of preparation, injury, or equipment failure is the way to go. There is definitely less ambiguity to a flat rate fine for everybody. However, it ends up putting the more responsible/prepared group into the same big pot as the "I have no idea what I'm doing but it is going to be wicked sick" crowd.

Note that if I ever had to be rescued, it would most likely have to do with injury (hope that NEVER happens) or equipment failure. And I would voluntarily attempt to monetarily compensate the rescue crew(s) that got me out. I likely wouldn't be able to afford the entire ticket, but I would show my appreciation.

tjf1967

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

You are in the same big pot, just smarter. Are you saying cause you are more prepared you should not have to pay for rescue. If you are engaging in dangerous activity and need help you should pay the bill. Its called personal accountability. If your to poor and can not afford the bill to get you out dont worry they will attach you paycheck the rest of your life.

It should be pretty straight foward

campgottagopee

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

In reply to this post by tjf1967

tjf1967 wrote

If some dumb ass dies cause he did not want to call.. well one less dumbass in the world.

Benny Profane

Re: Charging for Rescue, One Man's Idea

Stop, take a deep breath, and think. Imagine the media s**tshow when, instead of stupid stoner 18 year olds being rescued from the woods, they start carrying body bags filled with formerly stupid, stoned 18 year olds from the woods. Skiing doesn't need that. Trust me.

funny like a clown