FIS decides shaped skis are dangerous and go back to 1993

The FIS is changing the legal radius from 28m to 35m for GS.  This takes the skis back to the straight ski days of the early 1990's.  They feel this will make skiing safer.  They want the general public to also go backward - not rocket scientists are these guys.  Will they also make us wear neon one piece ski suits too and rear entry boots.  Maybe they will mandate a return to Head standard metal skis next.

If you have happened to look at a GS race ski last year it was really straight and narrow the way it is.  The top athletes are less than pleased and all these kids skiing have never had to make a turn on a straight ski but are great skiers will need to relearn how to turn.

according to the FIS "the focus of reducing speed and decreasing the self steering behavior of equipment.” is the goal.  These bozo's want to make the sport harder?  The way to slow it down is to make the courses turnier not make the equipment worse.  This would be like the USGA outlawing Pro V1's and making everyone use the real wood drivers from the 1980's.

This is the stupidiest thing i've heard in a long long time.

http://skiracing.com/?q=node/10843

ausable skier wrote

 "the focus of reducing speed and decreasing the self steering behavior of equipment.” is the goal.  

I've often wondered in a straight line descent if shaped skis are faster than straight skis. Or is the FIS thinking they are faster just through the turns?

Kinda odd to think about them reverting to straights. Would this affect high school racers also ? Is it April Fool's Day ?

Snowballs wrote

Would this affect high school racers also ? Is it April Fool's Day ?

I thought both of these things.

HS racing does not abide by FIS standards. So no affect on HS racers.

April Fool's day on the other hand... you could be onto something here.

A lot of money is going to be spent this season on new skis (as if that isn't true almost every other season), and I would almost hope they go back to the old standard after realizing how idiotic it was.

this is not a joke - just google FIS rule change

http://www.universalsports.com/news-blogs/article/newsid=562507.html

this is insane though - the truth is stupider than fiction in this case

It would affect J2 and older skiers who race for FIS points.  It will also affect younger skiers as the coaches are going to have to teach how to not carve turns.  You can't arc a 35m radius ski thru a 15 meter turn.  at the top levels they have been having to do whats called a skidvot for some time as the radi got longer each year.  Now any intermediate (as long as they are not on rocker skis) will be carving but the World Cup skiers will be skiiding turns.  They will have more in common with those skiing the bunny hill then us skiing Skyward.  Maybe rocker will find its way to race skis so they can just twist them around.  Since the FIS is now regulation slopestyle is a Super slopestyle G in the works - you tuck until you have to skid across a rail and then thru a burning ring of fire.  FIS = Federation of Idiot Skiers

I wouldn't mind a pair of illegals

This is all sorts of crazy. But unlike golf's governing body, I can't see this pro ruling trickling down to almost all equipment having to be manufactured to pro rules or branded "illegal". Golf is a little different since it is a "game" and can be played as such by the book by even first timers (granted, they will hate life). Its still crazy for the pros even if there are no ramifications for everyday skiers. Though having to teach kids differently and having to buy new equipment for kids that are already geared up is just not good.

it will definately be safer. the amount of ski load at high speed is much less with less shape. make the athlete be more of the determining factor. now they need to do the same with those silly speed suits

freshyslayer wrote

it will definately be safer.

Any proof? FIS has not presented any. There have been only a handful of injuries in GS in the last 10 years. By the way the Lauberhorn downhill still runs thru a tunnel and the racers reach almost 100 mph near the end of the longest race of the year. Where is the FIS safety concern in this example?

This is a just a power play by the FIS. The are an unneeded entity. Anybody with a lap top can keep the points and any sports management company can do a schedule that has more or less been the same for decades. I hope the racers fight this nonsense.

freshyslayer wrote

it will definately be safer. the amount of ski load at high speed is much less with less shape. make the athlete be more of the determining factor. now they need to do the same with those silly speed suits

they also are going to have new rules for speed suits which can not have a coefficent of drag below a certain level

The Austrians are pushing for this as they favor bigger skiers who will do better in the non shaped ski world cup.  They are worried that Ted Liegty will dominate the GS for the next 5 years and he is a smaller guy in comparison.

I don't think you can go backward.

freshyslayer wrote

it will definately be safer. the amount of ski load at high speed is much less with less shape. make the athlete be more of the determining factor. now they need to do the same with those silly speed suits

they also are going to have new rules for speed suits which can not have a coefficent of drag below a certain level

The Austrians are pushing for this as they favor bigger skiers who will do better in the non shaped ski world cup.  They are worried that Ted Liegty will dominate the GS for the next 5 years and he is a smaller guy in comparison.

I don't think you can go backward.

I honestly have no idea what to say about this. I'd prefer to say nothing so I don't feel like an idiot when I find out it's a joke, but I don't think it's a joke.

FIS-legal turn radii have been growing by a few meters a year for a while. I've always told myself it was a secret pact they had with ski companies to everyone would have to buy new equipment all the time. This is a bigger jump, though. If you look at marketing trends and the explosion of pow and tree skiing, you'll notice that perfect carving has fallen out of style. That being said, there's nothing like snapping a pair of slalom skis around on an icy day. Having done that, I can see what they mean about how much force gets preloaded on a flexing, tight-radius ski at speed. It's a pretty cool feeling, though, and I think that once you learn how to control it it is relatively safe.

When I was in high school, racing was so different from everyday skiing that a lot of the best racers I knew weren't proficient at skiing bumps or powder. This is testament to the fact that racing has become an incredibly specialized discipline. Athletes train harder and push the limits of their bodies and their equipment farther than ever before. Maybe the FIS wants to knock some of the elitism out of it.

I would not exactly be happy about this if I was still racing. I can come up with some half-assed justifications, but none are either definite or convincing. We shall see what happens next, and until then let's keep our fingers crossed on the idea that someone is a very clever trickster.

this is for real though it seems too stupid to be real - google fis rule changes

skis used for super g and downhill have very little shape the proof is in the use of the ski. a shaped ski on ice under heavy load generates a lot of rebound and if you are on your tails you get launched. look at the crashes. the racers always are launched onto their back

The good news here is IF this proposal goes through, it will not affect:
- USSA racers
- High School racers

Impact seasons:
- World Cup level in 2012-2013
- Continental Cup in 2013-2014
- Lower level FIS races potentially beyond above dates

Again IF this sticks.....

Only 1 crash in the second run at the crazy steep and icy Solden GS yesterday and the skier is ok. This is not a safety issue for GS.
Here is a video of USST member Warner Nickerson on a 40 meter gs ski.
2011 gs racing goes back to the future - 1985

Time to bring back the step turn.

Heard this last week from someone that I used to race with who know lives in Germany and races Masters in European races.

These rules will not affect the everyday skier. I believe miker92 is correct, the turn radius has change and gone slowly back up in the last few years (on Slalom and GS skis). This has been done due injuries, not necessarily crashes, but knees when the ski is pushed to the limit.

I have personally don't have much of an opinion on this, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a backward step without seeing the details behind the reasoning.

That was a scary video.

Skiing racing didn't suck prior to 1993.

A quick google search...one of the good GS skiers at the time of the old skis.

Tomba at Aspen 1990-91

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8D3oQJEM5Y

Scary for those that never skied on anything else. Again, I don't know what the pros and cons are behind this as I haven't followed this debate.

It's really hard to explain this because Alberto Tomba will forever be known as a legendary pro ski racer and I'm an amateur who raced in high school. Clearly, my credibility is lacking. I'll do my best, though.

To most people, that looks like an awesome run. Someone like Bode Miller, however, could sit down and point out problem after problem throughout the entire video. The concept of carving on a shaped ski means that the ski edge digs into the snow/ice so well that it follows its own sidecut around a turn with almost no lateral slippage. Watch right around 20 seconds into the video. For those who don't know, that red gate is called an undergate, meaning the arc of your turn follows around it without changing direction like it would alternating between normal gates. Through the continuation of that turn, his ski is slipping sideways a ton. It's spraying up a lot of snow and he's fighting very hard to avoid sliding further. He's also working really hard to keep his downhill ski from sliding out. Proper technique has the two skis more evenly weighted. On a ski with a tighter radius, the edge would hook up and create a cleaner turn. The end of the turn would deliver him higher up in his line, allowing for a quicker turn transition and a faster run overall. He's losing tons of time at every turn because he has to overcompensate for the sliding of his skis.

The FIS is basically saying that the down force wasted in skidding sideways is dangerous when the ski doesn't slide. That force preloads the core of the ski and must be supported by the binding, boot, and skier. When the turn transition comes around, the wood and metal in the core of the ski "pop," releasing that preloaded energy. It's not hard to learn how to control this and it leads to much quicker turn transitions and a lot less sliding.

Ted Ligety had a little something to say see his post "11 | 20 | 2011   Tyranny of FIS"

FIS’s tyranny has gone on long enough. It seems FIS is going out of their way to ruin the sport. FIS runs a dictatorship. They demand absolute control then try to butter their will in a fake cloak of benevolence. Athletes, SRS (Association of Ski Racing Suppliers and NGBs (national governing bodies) are completely impotent in their ability to create positive change in our sport or to stand against rules FIS imposes.

I feel like I might be beating a dead horse on this subject but it is paramount for the future on ski racing. The new rules imposed on ski regulations can’t go through in their current state. They will eventually ruin this sport. As most people already know FIS is imposing new ski regulations that turn back the clock on the evolution of this sport. Giant Slalom has been unfairly targeted. Current rules are >27 meters radius (more sidecut) and minimum length of 185cm, new rules will be >35 meters radius (straight skis from 80’s) and minimum of 195cm. (I currently race on 29-meter radius, 191cm in length skis.) FIS has put together a study that has recorded injuries from 2006-2011. A time frame for which did not allow for any correlations to build between injuries and eras in equipment. We’d need the same info dating back to the early 80’s to see any injury to equipment correlations, not the last 5 years. In FIS’S study they say 36 skiers were “severely” (out for 28 days or longer) injured in downhill, 9 in Super G, 16 in GS and 11 in slalom. They didn’t not take into account that GS is the most skied event, everyone from downhillers to slalom skiers train GS. There are probably 200 GS runs skied for a single downhill run skied and in races there are 2 runs in GS as opposed to one in downhill. Without even doing math it is obvious that the injuries per run in GS are far less then downhill. This begs the obvious question that goes unanswered; why was GS targeted?

On the World Cup it is pretty rare when the vast majority of the athletes agree on anything. The ski regulations, particularly in GS have brought together the athletes like never before 41 out of the top 50 men signed a petition against the rules and in Soelden 15 of the top 20 men in GS (Austrians didn’t come) met to discuss the rules. (It should be noted that only 2 racers have advocated for the rules; Hannes Reichelt and Benjamin Raich along with one Ski Company Amer Sports or also known as Atomic and Salomon.) In which we all opposed the imposed ski regulations and agreed that the ultimate goal was to eliminate FIS from equipment regulation. As athletes we have the greatest incentive to be safe and healthy. We all know how short our careers can be and very few of us are compensated for the risks we take. Therefore, we currently and in the future choose equipment that not only allows us the ability to be fast but to make it to the finish line safely. I have on many occasions chosen skis that were slower but had better control instead of faster and uncontrollable skis. The equipment companies are highly incentivized to keep their athletes healthy as well. They have far more invested in us then FIS and NGBs so they want to protect us as their asset. FIS has shown that they don’t value athletes, as seen in this instance in their complete disregard for our input. FIS’s study was based around 2 on snow sessions with several Europa Cup skiers. Suffice to say that is not nearly enough data to come up with such dramatic conclusions. With just those two tests and with no input from athletes or coaches they pushed the rule though so that there was no opportunity to debate the proposals. The athletes, SRS and the coaches protested and have since proposed a World Cup test where the top 15 athletes would test the new equipment on a World Cup slope but FIS denied this opportunity to evaluation their hypothesis. Proof that FIS has little confidence that their research will hold up under further testing. FIS’s only goal it seems is to look like they are being proactive safety wise though they won’t bare the brunt of the consequences when they don’t work. By making these rules they can say they tried and that may somehow elevate them of any liability.

FIS has already shown their incompetence in coming up with safer rules in the past. In 2007 they made a rule that made the skis wider which made the skis more aggressive which may have led to injuries by extending the lever arm thus putting more force on the knee. The new rules will make the sport more not less dangerous. Not only did FIS’s study say that there was no statistical difference in force between current skis and new skis but they didn’t measure the torque that will be needed to twist the ski around in a clean manner. Thus creating a larger force on one’s knee. The law of unintended consequences will kick in and most likely create more injuries. The latest generation of World Cup racers has never skied on straight skis so these new skis will be completely foreign (less controllable), making them/us get into awkward body positions and ski in a “jumpy” manner so that we can create enough force to turn them. We will also take a straighter line in which we will slide the top of the turn then hit the edge hard, creating a higher peak force (mostly centered around the bottom of the turn where force is highest already), while leaning back to get the radius needed, since the sidecut in the tip will not allow the ski to turn in a forward/centered body position. Outside of the injuries this type of skiing will create by creating a higher sheering force on the knee (commonly associated with ACL tears), it will also cause greater fatigue, which is one of the leading injury causes. The ski industry has produced many studies tracking millions of skier visits over the last 30+ years in which they have found the advent of sidecut has juristically reduced injuries (mainly to the knee). I’m more inclined to believe a study that has tracked millions of skiers over 30+ years then a study in which testing was concluded in 2 days with less then 10 athletes. Injuries happen when the athletes are taken out of their comfort zone and we will not be in our comfort zone with these skis.

So how will this ruin the sport? The new skis will make skiing at the World Cup level less enjoyable to watch and perhaps more importantly far less enjoyable to participate in while making it more dangerous. Arcing clean turns is a joy everyone racing now days can enjoy. That feeling will be gone. First World Cup athletes will suffer this fate then in a couple years when the rules become FIS wide 15 year old kids will have to turn in their “old” carving skis for long straight skis. This will give the big kids an even bigger advantage and will drive kids out of ski racing; into freesking or the copious amount of other sports kids have available to them. Another way it will ruin the sport is the economically side. Ski racing is to ski technology as Formula 1 is to car technology. This new rule will take that away from ski racing since anyone will be able to buy better skis in a store then we race on. Why would ski companies stay in racing if it were no longer driving technology and sales? Ski companies are the main financial supporters of this sport; the athletes make the majority of their income for their ski companies and the amount equipment built for World Cup skiers is astronomical. If the athletes are no longer driving R&D and sales, the companies will eventually pull their support. Most athletes struggle to make a living at this sport already and without the support of the ski companies most won’t be able to afford to continue racing. And there goes the sport of ski racing.

FIS’s tyranny doesn’t just cover ski regulations but all sponsorships too, from the size of your headgear sponsor to the speed suit to the logo on your goggles. I am particularly concerned about the goggle logo issue for the obvious reason that I own a goggle/helmet company; Shred. FIS has long had a rule that the logo on the goggle strap could not be larger than 15 square centimeters. The rule has been ignored for just as long as it’s been around and for good reason, you can’t read a 15 square cm logo on someone travelling at speed and it was never enforced. This fall, out of the blue FIS decided they were going to enforce this rule, for seemingly no reason. Enforcement now is apparently, first a warning followed by not being allowed to start the race on the second offense. Most logos currently are 40-50 square centimeters. There is no point sponsoring a ski racer let alone start a company based around ski racing when one’s logo is too small to be noticeable. This hurts small companies like mine the most since it greatly takes away Shred’s ability to get valuable impressions to break through. Outside of this rule’s enforcement being a bad idea, it was not made known to companies early enough so they could put together the logistics to comply or what will likely happen in the future, decide their marketing budget is better spent else where. Which gets me to the greater point of FIS seemingly trying to drain the pockets of the athletes, since a large portion of athletes’ income is derived from helmet/goggle companies. I would think it would be in the sports, therefore FIS’s best interest to create value for not only FIS’s sponsors but also the sponsors that allow the athletes to compete at a high level.

Not only will FIS not listen to rejections from SRS and NGB’s on the ski regulations and logo issues as a show of complete power. It wants to fine athletes for speaking out against FIS. I was threatened several years ago for wearing a “FIS SUCKS” sticker on the back of my helmet. (I was 2 minutes late to a pre bid draw meeting and forced to start 45 while I was leading the standings hence the sticker.) I was told that a similar action would result in a 5000 CHF fine. Most recently word is that FIS is thinking about suing Jon Olsson for his choice comments he made on his blog about the ski regulations and posting “FIS SUCKS” logo on his site. At the most recent FIS meeting they discussed punishments for athletes speaking out against them. I quote an excerpt from that meeting, “The Council agreed to develop a “Code” to deal with cases of improper behavior that fall outside the competence of the competition jury to augment the existing rules, such as blasphemy on social networking sites or bringing the sport into disrepute.” Who would have thought that being a ski racer you lose your right to free speech.

One would think there would be some discourse to combat these atrocities but there is not at this point. Apparently Bill Marolt; the President of USSA and Vice President of FIS doesn’t even have the ability to bring these subjects up for discussion, let alone reversed or revised. The athletes to this point have had zero representation in the decisions FIS makes. When we hear of FIS’s decisions and we disagree we are ignored as shown in Soelden. Faceless committees make these decisions, and once the mandates are passed down their ego doesn’t allow them to admit wrong and reverse rules that are so obviously wrong. Unfortunately for alpine ski racing FIS monopolizes the sport so any and all changes will be hard fought or take FIS vastly rethinking their position in how the sport processes or more likely regresses. Perhaps it’s time to unionize the athletes or start an alternative tour. (An athlete union is now developing but it remains to be seen how effective it will be.) This should serve as warning for sports like freeride skiing and snowboarding, don’t let FIS monopolize your sport. FIS will bleed your sport dry of what has made it so cool.

Ted Ligety

PS Feel free to repost this anywhere and everywhere.