Giant Resort Companies You Hate Are Saving Skiing

Is it true?

https://www.outsideonline.com/2367016/keep-skiing-weird

Are they saving skiing? No. Mount Peter is. Feeder hills are what is required to keep Vail stocked with customers. Does Mount Peter need Vail?

Do they make skiing more affordable? Well, sure. At least, they make skiing at those giant, expensive hills less out of reach. There are lots of ways to make skiing affordable though.

Do they open up better career paths for people who want to work in the industry? I doubt it. Who knows though. The author didn’t really offer any evidence of that. He just stated it.

The bit about weird skiing culture seemed a little unfocused to me. Society over all is less weird and more homogenized then it used to be. Blame the schools.

Multi resort passes don’t appeal to me but I can see why others like them. I never cared about ski towns, just give me a clean room and a good meal and I’m set. Better more stable employment, it’s a seasonal business.

Brownski wrote

. Society over all is less weird and more homogenized then it used to be. Blame the schools.

What?

Consolidation is going on in every business, and it isn't good:

https://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org/

It allows 1 or 2 or 3 huge entities to control an entire market. It's bad for consumers, bad for labor, bad for innovation, and bad for competition.

I hope Vail & Alterra go the way of ASC.

I wasn't aware that Winter Park started the Colorado season-pass wars in the late 90s.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I hope Vail & Alterra go the way of ASC.

So then why did you buy the MAX pass?

 WOoHOO!!!

My new Season's Pass.
 

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Brownski wrote

. Society over all is less weird and more homogenized then it used to be. Blame the schools.

What?

Blame the parents? I don’t know.

A few logical fallacies are presented in this article.

The first is that skiers who complain about big conglomerate homogenized resorts actually ski at those resorts and benefit from the season passes. There is not a race to the bottom on season pass prices. Ski areas and resorts not on the multi-area season pass band wagon continue to have high season pass prices, continue to increase season pass prices, and continue to have their loyal following buy those passes.

As someone else previously mentioned, the feeder areas are the core of keeping the bigger areas open in the long term and "saving skiing". New skiers and infrequent skiers (that spend the most at resorts) are not buying season passes at the big resorts. Even with lower prices, they don't ski enough to make it worth it. Extraordinary day ticket prices hurt these folks that might never get up to the big mountains enough for them to think a season pass is worth it.

The low season pass prices only benefit folks that would already have paid the higher prices. But it is a zero sum game for most skiers... a low pass price only serves to siphon off a season pass holder at another area, perhaps a non-multi resort area. How is that going to "save skiing"? It could only help to hurt the competition, which are not feeder areas.

Finally, the multi-resort area ownership hurts jobs. By combining many areas under one umbrella, a business can reduce the number of people that do overlapping work and create more specialization. Specialization means it is harder to develop a broad base of skills and move up the ladder, especially now that there are fewer and fewer total positions. That is one of the ways they can make the cheap season pass work.

It isn't all bad and I stopped ragging on the big resorts long ago, it was a pointless and silly thing to do. I just don't ski at areas that don't appeal to me. The lower price season pass is great for people that like to ski those mountains. But to put this type of thing up on a pedestal and say that it is "saving skiing" is ludicrous.

Okay, I realize I am definitely not representing the majority here, but if you want to "save skiing", do exactly this:

Buy this and do this:



or maybe this:



and definitely this:



Ski local and fuck those corporate assholes.

I'm not saying you have to completely give up on lifts, but skiing used to be a lot more like Trail mountain biking is now.  A lot of AT and Tele setups can be used dual purpose for lift-served and human powered skiing.

The first sentence is true

campgottagopee wrote

The first sentence is true

PeeTex wrote

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I hope Vail & Alterra go the way of ASC.

So then why did you buy the MAX pass?

I bought a Max Pass last year, and I bought a IKON pass this year. I also had ASC passes all through college because they allowed me to ski at Sugarloaf when I was at school & Mt. Snow/Killington when I was home.

I also bought a rug at Walmart yesterday for $18 and a part for my car on Amazon because I wanted it delivered this week.

Just because I think it's shitty that these companies are allowed to decimate mom & pop businesses doesn't mean that I don't realize that their technical advantages keep prices low & their distribution network makes the shopping experience better. (If I wanted to send this thread straight to PolitiCrap, I'd say something here about how it isn't these companies' responsibility to play fair, it's the government's responsibility to make sure people aren't getting railroaded by monopoly power).

It's like Subway - the sandwiches aren't great, I don't love the place, and I'd usually prefer to go somewhere else.  But Subways are everywhere and it would be awful hard for me to get a footlong roll, meat, lettuce, cheese, black olives, spinach, tomatoes, onions, banana peppers, sweet onion sauce, salt & pepper for $5. They take advantage of the efficiencies  of mass production & bulk pricing to make things super cheap, fast & easy. So two or 3 times a year, I'll eat at Subway.

Skiing needs big destination resorts and it also needs mom & pop resorts. I go to both, because I like skiing at both. I went to MRG Wednesday, paying for a Mad Card to support a business that I want to see last forever. And I used my IKON pass to go to Sugarbush on Saturday:


I bought lunch at MRG, but didn't spend any money at Sugarbush, skiing right through lunch and going to one of my favorite places, Mad Taco, after I got off the hill.

Both were the exactly the skiing experiences I expected. And, as Cunningstunts says, if I don't like the ski area experience in general, there's always the Backcountry.

Camp is right. Skiers love to bitch. These are all first world problems for sure. I'm going to spend time at all sorts of mountains this year. This coming weekend, I'll do Plattekill on Saturday, then probably Stratton on Sunday. The IKON pass will allow me to meet my brother in Jackson Hole in February, then ski at Squaw Valley when I'm out for his wedding in May.

I don't make the rules or set the game up, I just play the game as it exists.

Side note: please stop eating Subway. That chain needs to die.

Between the way that they routinely abuse their franchisees, the rubber compounds in their bread, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: people at Subway knew that Jared (not a celebrity who’s endorsement they just picked up....this was their grassroots guy who gained wealth and fame and power because of Subway’s marketing campaigns about him and his fucking asinine “subway diet”) was a child molester!

Also: what’s up with their tomatoes? They have no guts and their texture is too uniform.

The place is gross on all levels. Get a gas station sandwich or a grocery store salad bar.

I do the grocery store salad bar thing. A lot of Stewart's on the road, too.

Subway sucks, sure, but I'm not sure that I should hold a particular franchise operator responsible for Jared diddling kids. Also, that was just an example, put in whatever sandwich shop you want - Jreck (ew), DiBella's (yum), Wegman's (which are just DiBella's), etc.

IMHO you punish.

If that means some innocent priests or Penn State assistant coaches go down with the ship......so be it.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

 put in whatever sandwich shop you want - Jreck (ew), DiBella's (yum), Wegman's (which are just DiBella's), etc.

Wegmans and Dibellas are local chains that have expanded around the east a bit.

Sure they are kind of corporate now (I live right near the HQ which is fairly large) but they grew for a reason.  They had good product.  They were never cheap and still aren't.  Wegmans is the most expensive shopping option in the area other than buying everything from local farms.

Back to the whole skiing thing.  My post wasn't necessarily to deter one from the ski industry - you have to read the bottom line.  It is to promote community skiing efforts, much like what mountain biking is now in most areas.  VT has embraced this model for BC skiing and it looks to be doing well.  There are still small semi-private ski hills that embrace similar models that do well.  Plattekill seems to be a good model of a community based improvement project (from what I've read).  This will save skiing for skiers.  Vail will definitely be around for those who see skiing as a vacation.  As much as that sounds like fun, I'd rather skiing be a regular part of life.  The weather doesn't always cooperate, but we have ways around that.  I can't ride my bike every day for the same reasons.  It's just part of the game.  Perhaps someone will open some indoor plastic slopes for those that need a consistent fix.  This exists for MTB (Ray's indoor for example) as well as multiple indoor BMX arenas.

Competition breeds good business, imo

The strong will survive

 

MC if you don’t like how a company does business vote with your wallet and go elsewhere.

The industry consolidation has been good to bring prices down on passes.  Unfortunately it forces you to choose a side to support which is exactly what it is designed to do.  I had a Max pass in past but now the ikon has less resorts than Max did.  There is a good and bad side to this for sure.

Unfortunately the ones like Orda that are shut out of the process are going to get left behind.  The best thing for Orda would be to bring it under professional management by leasing it to Epic or Ikon but that won’t be happening.  Orda needs to get itself back in either Epic or ikon post haste as a partner.  

I think this consolidation creates a niche for the Magic Platty and Targhees of the ski world to offer a unique different experience for those that don’t like to ski corporate, shop at Wall Mart, or eat at Subway.  While many industries are dominated by big boys if you can create a unique brand experience you can thrive in today’s business world.  What you can’t do is try to sort of compete with them as they can outspend and out glitz you.  I’m against WF and Orda fancification as they are trying to compete with the likes of epics Stowe and Okemo and ikon Tremblant and Stratton.  It’s a battle orda could never win as they don’t have the money or management to pull it off nor the full package with real estate and slopeside lodging.  When Epic zigs Orda, Platty and Magic of the world need to zag.  Embrace the picnic culture, don’t groom everything, embrace what makes you different and better whether it be trees at Gore or Steeps at WF.  I’d give up some of these things at WF if we got the benefits that the pro management and pass benefits would bring.  Now we are losing our culture and soul with no benefits being gained.  It’s a total lose lose for us around the Daks.  This kind of business thinking and strategy is well outside Orda’s management education and experience as well as govt mind set as the Gov likes to meddle and make grandstanding moves.  Good to see Magic and Platty seem to get it and are pulling it off.

Z wrote

MC if you don’t like how a company does business vote with your wallet and go elsewhere..

I recognize that there are plenty of different experiences for everyone, and, as long as people are skiing & equipment makers keep making equipment, I'm fine with all of it. Mega resorts are good in their way, mid sized places are good in their way, and small, local ski areas are good in their way.

I support them all with my dollars because I want to see them all survive (even if I'd rather have resorts under individual ownership banding together to sell passes, rather than Vail & Aspen owning all the big boys).

Later in your post, you make the point I was making, and CunningStunts keeps making. There needs to be a lot of different definitions of the "skiing experience".

The people who run ORDA seem to have gotten their idea of "the skiing experience" from going to Okemo, Stratton, & Tremblant (admittedly, some very crowded resorts that do well). So they are trying to wrench that idea into Gore & WF (while also trying not to spend as much money on snowmaking, lifts, & grooming). It would help things if they got some ideas from MRG, Magic & Platty. But the ORDA guys probably look at those places as failures because they aren't doing 150,000 skier visits per year.

The problem is that ORDA is stuck in the middle. When Whiteface & Gore get 15" of snow and we're having fun all over the mountain, the Stratton/Okemo crowd shows up and complains that there isn't enough grooming. When there's a snow drought & the Backcountry isn't in play, the MRG/Magic crowd shows up and complains that the food & beer costs too much, the mountain caters too much to families, and the mountains don't have "soul".

The easiest thing to do is just recognize that every place is different, employees are doing what they can despite demands from management & guests, and people should really stop bitching about tiny problems. But we'll never get to that point (nor should we. I like bitching!).