Gore Mtn Snowmaking (11-12)

another bonus to those new HKD's, is that they make a hell of a lot of snow. I don't know if anyone else noticed, but last year, at the split of the bottom of Echo (either you go to the bottom of the triple or back to the BRQ) they had placed one of those tower guns there to demo. I talked to Mike Pratt, he said they let that thing run for a couple days on end, and they would have to push the pile of snow around twice a night while grooming.

My point being that, you can count on the lower mountain trails being covered in an incredible amount of time.

Harvey44 wrote

Another factor: Gore owns owns only a small fraction of the number of guns they need to cover the terrain.  The result is a lot of time and effort spent moving guns around.  If all of your ratniks are up top and it rains, then the crew has to haul all those guns down and start blowing on the front. Now you can leave them up top and go.

Basically all of the "Rats" that were used on those trails before can stay up top and in other places, not to mention, they dont need to waste time dorking around on the north side making snow and pile it up on Rumor sooner than ever. But keep in mind this is Gore mt., and this is all wishful thinking.

Quick update from Gore:

"130 guns are installed, they went a long way.  

Used some of the "extras" (plus 10 guns we are demo'ing) to add guns to parts of Headwaters and Tannery.

Showcase still TBD.

FYI Bar will be done by opening day, outdoor grill by mid-December."


Poacher caught in Darby Woods

I don't get to Gore to often but the HKD's are the way to go. I know that compressed air is the big expense for any snowmaking operation. Some areas use these guns without any compressed air. Under the right conditons you don't need it, but it has to be just right, low temps & low humidity. Anything else and you end up with a real mess.

endoftheline wrote

I don't get to Gore to often but the HKD's are the way to go. I know that compressed air is the big expense for any snowmaking operation. Some areas use these guns without any compressed air. Under the right conditons you don't need it, but it has to be just right, low temps & low humidity. Anything else and you end up with a real mess.

Toggenburg uses them without air. It's awesome because it's really quiet. If I remember right, they have to blow the snow, let it sit for ~24 hrs for the water to drain out of the piles before they can push any of it around.

Harvey,

I had no idea that 25% of Gore's budget is allocated to paying for compressed air.  That's amazing.  

If these HDK guns are more efficient as advertised, and (fingers crossed) the operating budget hasn't decreased substantially, I guess that we can all look forward to a significant increase in man made powder this year.  I've always felt that the snow making at Gore was it's Achilles' heel and really one of its only negatives.  

BTW, are they 10-20 times or percent more efficient.  I've come across conflicting info.  If "times" I'm VERY optimistic about the coming season.  

CMR wrote

I had no idea that 25% of Gore's budget is allocated to paying for compressed air.  That's amazing.  

When Mike and I first discussed his idea for this upgrade (Sept 2010) we had a very interesting chat. That was the first thing he told me. 25% of the mountain's entire operating budget, was for electricity to compress air. That's not the whole snowmaking budget.

CMR wrote

If these HDK guns are more efficient as advertised, and (fingers crossed) the operating budget hasn't decreased substantially, I guess that we can all look forward to a significant increase in man made powder this year.  I've always felt that the snow making at Gore was it's Achilles' heel and really one of its only negatives.

These guns are extremely efficient. That same day in 2010 Mike showed me a list of 20 different types of guns with efficiency ratings next to them. For each gun there was a number. For the life of me I can't remember what the "units" of measurement were.  But each number represented how much compressed air (ie electricity) was needed to make (a cubic meter?) of snow. The ratnik ground guns had a number like "50" next to them and the HKD towers were rated at "1400,"  Incredible difference.

Basically he was saying - yea you can get more compressor capacity but you still need the money to run the compressors. By going super efficient you save the money.  The real magic in the whole deal was not any of that stuff. The hard part was working through all of the paperwork and cutting the deal with National Grid for the grant.  And - something I can get into more at another time -  GM's ability to negotiate electricity prices and stick to his end of the bargain - that's the real magic.

Following though, is what I think you really want to know:

Harvey44 wrote

This placement of the new guns will do one of two things: either decrease the time it takes to get to the summit or increase the amount of terrain that is open down low when they do move to the summit.  That's an interesting question of approach that I will pose. (I think I can guess the answer.)

Harvey: "How will this improvement affect operations? Will you move up to Bear and the summit after the same amount of front side terrain is open, or will you use the extra efficiency to open more terrain at the bottom before you move up?"

Mike:  "We won't make more snow. We'll make the same amount of snow faster and cheaper."

While Mike didn't really answer my question, he answered yours precisely.  That may not be the answer you want, but think of it this way. Budgets are being cut - that's reality. ORDA had their state allocation cut from 6 million to 4 million last year. No matter how much money you have, this is going to give you more snow for the money.  

Even more big picture - think of how Mike sold this deal.  This was not a easy thing to put together. Alot of players had to buy in - ORDA, the State of NY and National Grid. He was able to promise cost savings to NY and ORDA, better customer satisfaction to ORDA, and lower energy usage to National Grid. IMO, it's solid work.

CMR wrote

I had no idea that 25% of Gore's budget is allocated to paying for compressed air.  That's amazing.  

That figure's not right.  Utilities for all of ORDA were $4.7 million last year.  That would include lifts, snowmaking, light, HVAC etc for all venues.  I'm going to guess Gore's share to be around $1.5 million, and that's for a lot more than just compressed air for snowmaking.  Gore's revenues were about $8 million.  It's possible that compressed air is 10-15% of Gore's budget, which is still very substantial, but it's not 25%.

None of what I just said diminishes in any way the significance of the new equipment or the significance of Mike getting that project done as Harv descrives above.

The Gore staff deserves an A+ for pulling this off given the economic environment. I'm sure it was a ton of work and there was always the very real possibility that the deal wouldn't get done.

State employees have taken a lot of flack recently but Pratt and team went the extra mile.

tom

They got a grant from National Grid for 50% 0f the cost....maybe there's more National Grid grant money to be had. If so, ORDA would be wise to scrape their cookie jar for more matching funds. According to Pratt, this particlar investment will be paid off/returned in just two seasons. Looks to save them $143,000 per year. X10 years=1.4mill.

Glad ORDA is finally boosting up Gore's snowmaking.

Mike:  "We won't make more snow. We'll make the same amount of snow faster and cheaper."

It's unfortunate that Gore won't increase snowmaking this season.  But given the current economic climate it's entirely understandable.  Hopefully "faster" means that Gore will be better equipped to quickly rebound from periods of rain and thaw.  

I would also like to commend Mr. Pratt and the Gore staff on what they have accomplished at Gore over the last several years.  Gore has been my family's home mountain for three years now, and each year we've been impressed with the improvements.  

I visted Gore on Thursday, the guns are ready to roll!








New HKD's are ready!

Tracks are on the cats.

The new patio is well.....coming along
I also stopped by the ski bowl to stumble upon 4, brand new, Techno Alpin Tower Guns along the side of the half pipe


They must be water only guns because there is no air at the ski bowl, anyone have any more info on the gun itself?

November is looking very warm for the next 2 plus weeks, could be a late start to the year

MMMM, Shiny.



Sagamore looks ready.

fujative wrote

Check that bad boy out. 10 nozzels.

Bet Uncle Mikey's itchin to try it out.
 

High efficiency; low output.

adkskier wrote

High efficiency; low output.

Joke? Or do the new high efficiency guns actually put out less snow per hour?

Here is info on the new tower guns. They use less air and produce less snow. This is true of all of the tower guns.
http://www.snowgun.com/snowmaking-products-hkd-towers-snowguns.asp

The amount of air used actually has very little to do with the amount of snow made. It all depends on the amount of water. Because there is less air they are more energy efficient. But the neuclation nozzles are more effective on the new HKD tower guns making up for the little usage of air.

neuclation

Gore's snow makers began blowing snow on Sunway this evening. Warm day time temps in the forecast. Makes me wonder if they're just trying to keep up with Whiteface.