Interesting area on WF trail map-What is it?

its seems Gore folks think one way about the glades counting and WF says the other.  I'm in the minority of WF then as i heard that glades don't count

if they did Gore would seem to be way over their limit.  Could it be that if they are a stand alone glade it counts but a glade next to or or between trails does not - seems to have some logic to it but this in the state govt regulations we are talking about

I also think Gore would be way over the 40 mile limit if glades counted. And I think that moving glades to "on the map" status would be a much tougher decision. Yikes if we move XYZ onto the map then we can expand onto BR or wherever.

To clarify what I'd heard, the discussion was never about glades but liftlines.  Bruce told me liftlines counted at Whiteface, Mike told me liftlines didn't count at Gore.  It does seem odd that the rules would be different, but I suppose it's possible.

ausable skier wrote

I heard it a little different - glades don't count in the mileage count but if you allow skiing under a lift it then is a trail and does count in the mileage.

To bring a lawyer's perspective to bear on how to count the glades in terms of mileage, I'd say that, practically speaking, it's a matter for the mountain to determine. The constitution itself (http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/constitution.htm) uses the word "trail" and specifies certain maximum widths and mileages. However, my interpretation is that glades would NOT count against the mileage maximum because they are not trails and are, arguably, 0 ft wide. Furthermore, if I'm Gore or Whiteface, who's going to challenge my interpretation? It would be difficult for any person to have standing to challenge the determination because no one suffers a cognizable injury.

Just my $.02, but unless there's caselaw out there I'm unaware of (and I haven't looked for it), I think the mountain could certainly take the position that glades don't count towards the mileage cap.

Harvey44 wrote

To clarify what I'd heard, the discussion was never about glades but liftlines.  Bruce told me liftlines counted at Whiteface, Mike told me liftlines didn't count at Gore.  It does seem odd that the rules would be different, but I suppose it's possible.

Harvey, I think it could certainly differ between Gore and Whiteface if the decision was made by each mountain independently as opposed to by ORDA. As I mentioned in my previous response, there's really mechanism to enforce the mileage maximums and normally courts will give some deference to agency (i.e. ORDA) determinations of their own enabling statutes or, in this case, an analogous constitutional provision. So if Gore and WF decide not to count glades, odds are glades won't count.

I like the legal analysis!

My feeling, which is probably worth nothing, is that if Whiteface wanted to drop the rope on a number of liftlines and name them as glades, they may be able to do so without much pushback.  Gore has got to be doing that, otherwise it seems like they would be way over their mileage limit.  I could be wrong about all that, very wrong.  However, if not....take the area in question under the Lookout Triple.  Why not take everything skiers left of Hoyts, including the area under the lift, and make it a glade?   But to my original point, it doesn't seem like WF is as agressive as Gore in pushing those kinds of boundries.  So, even if WF could drop a rope and call it a glade, there may be reasons they don't want to.

Harvey44 wrote

To clarify what I'd heard, the discussion was never about glades but liftlines.  Bruce told me liftlines counted at Whiteface, Mike told me liftlines didn't count at Gore.  It does seem odd that the rules would be different, but I suppose it's possible.

I doubt the rules are different.  With respect to counting liftlines, how would WF really know?  They don't really have any liftlines?  Valley/River Run?  Deer?  Gold?  Lower Skyward?  I don't consider these liftlines, these are trails that happen to run under a lift.  I could see how they would count.  A true liftline at WF would be under the Freeway lift, under the upper half of the Summit Quad, and under the Lookout Triple.  Not likely these would meet the parameters (widthe/length) for a trail, so they would be something else, a glade perhaps.  Maybe WF has addressed this question, and tried to add these liftlines, and was told they counted?  Or are they just conservative on the subject?

If lift lines count why not attempt to clear some out and make them skiable.  With a little clearing and some decent snow cover the top of the Gondi at WF would be epic and the walk out would limit the amount it was skied making it even better.

I don't think that Lookouts lift line would be all that great since it has a weird fall line and major trees laying everywhere.

Could those little birds have anything to do with it?   Some tree hugger could say the habitat they live in is being damaged.  

ausable skier wrote

If lift lines count why not attempt to clear some out and make them skiable...

It's my understanding that when you say they count, it means they only count IF you ski them.  So in Mike's mind ... why not ski them they don't count. In Bruce's mind, let's not ski XYZ lift line as it's not as valuable as XYZ other terrain.

In this thread:

http://forum.nyskiblog.com/Whiteface-NY-4-9-11-The-Slides-tp2800926p2809907.html

Takeahike46er linked to the Unit Management Plan (a pdf), and said that liftlines and glades count at Whiteface:

http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/wf_ump.pdf

And then there was this:

http://forum.nyskiblog.com/The-25-and-40-Mile-Limits-on-NY-State-Mtns-td1887106.html

DOH!  

The info came from our own interview with Bruce done in November 2010.

Here is the relevant part:

HR: Gore Mountain, also run by ORDA, opens terrain under many of their chairlifts when conditions permit. Why doesn’t Whiteface do the same? There's terrain under the Freeway and Lookout chairs that looks great.

Bruce: If a lift line is used as a trail, it would have to be added to our trail count. As you probably know, the state constitution only allows us to have 25 miles of trails. When the fourth trail on Lookout is added, we'll be within 3/10th of a mile of this limit. Opening the lift lines would require closing other trails.

I'd trade Wilmington trail for the Gondi lift line

Hmmm......Table T1 of the most recent Whiteface Unit Management Plan is a listing of all trails at Whiteface (existing and proposed), including each trail's total slope length, and the total trail footage/mileage at the resort, as proposed at full build out.  The count at Whiteface includes glades.

I don't see the same kind of table in the UMP amendments for Gore.  No more time to look for it, now at least.  If someone could search that out it would certianly answer the question as to whether Gore's glades/liftlines are considered in their mileage count.

It would be nice to have a definite answer.  Then again, if the two mountains aren't on the same page, maybe we don't want an answer.........

The trail specs that Skidds and I are referring to:



Having gone back and checked, Gore's most recent UMP lacks a comprehensive mileage count.

WF and Gore are in different APA land classifications I think.  That may be the difference we are looking for.  If not lets either use the Gore measurement at WF or drop this topic quickly before the eco nuts catch wind of it and bring in the frickin bird police