Man made snow vs Natural

I'm so sick and tired of resorts claiming what comes out of a snow gun is the same thing as what falls from the sky. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!
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1)UNGROOMED Man Made Snow VS NATURA UNGROOMED:

Man made is a completely different product than what falls from the sky.

Sleet VS SNOW. You ever get a face shot with man made?

It's dense and and very wet. The surface area is small. They are basically pellets, NOT snow flakes. If you've ever actually skied 2 feet of natural and then tried the same thing with machine made snow then it's like comparing snow to sand.

2)Groomed MMS vs natural GROOMED
Now here's the biggest misconception. That once you groom it, then it's the same thing. This is total crap. I ski ALL THE TIME for years. Natural snowfall is SOFT.[B] You can put a pole into the snow like butter. With Machine made, it's MUCH firmer. It skies differently even when both are GROOMED.[/B] With machine made, Hardpack tends to form beneath the surface that can get skied off quick. Because MMS is so much more dense and more prone to icing.

Now, sometimes [B]groomed [/B]man made snow can get CLOSE in quality to natural snow. And sometimes it sucks and is too hard. After years of skiing I see no correlation to humidity or anything else when it comes to machine made snow quality(wet bulb has to be below 26 to even make snow and simply makes snow making EASIER). It's simply a matter of luck or some snow making variable I don't understand, but it's not humidity because I've seen 20% humidity and it still was icy and seen 60% humidty and it was great. So who knows.

Now all that being said, sometimes machine made snow is really good! Sometimes it can get icy and too firm and hardpack even when you're gone on a trail first thing after they've blown all night. You can even see a difference between trails! Now with natural snow, let's say a foot of snow fell overnight and they groomed. EVERY TRAIL WILL BE GREAT SOFT PACKED POWDER 100% of the time. Even if it's cement wet snow from nature. It will groom in beautifully.We simply can't make a product equivalent to what mother nature provides.

All that being said, we ABSOLUTELY NEED snow guns on the ec for obvious reasons. In southern areas, there'd be no ski areas without them. Also, if it hasn't snowed in a while, snow guns HELP the conditions out big time!

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When is man made snow the same as natural? After it's been skied on/groomed REPEATEDLY for days and/or gone through a thaw/freeze cycle. Then you can't tell the difference.Anyone that's asking a question like this has obviously never skied real powder(since machine made powder doesn't exist. It's too dense. You can ski sierra cement and still actually ski it like powder, but not with machine made) I question whether they've even skied the day after a overnight foot fell when the GROOMED trail is in incredible SOFT and silent snow 100% of the time, unlike what comes from the snow guns, which is highly variable. Sometimes good and close to natural, but sometimes much worse and never as good as the real thing even when groomed.

Oh and the idea that wind makes real snow the same as machine made snow is another lie. You can get a face shot from a wind drift natural snow, not from a whale. It's too dense. It's not the product. PERIOD.

Oh and glade, every post I make is NOT negative. I've said plenty of good things about bosquet, berkshire east, snow ridge ect. ect. I simply tell the truth in my posts. I simply don't buy into the B.S. that is marketed to people.(ie machine made snow is the same thing as the real stuff that falls from the sky)

I was at Bristol yesterday and I noticed the XC trails used what looked like an old fashioned snow gun (air hose, water hose, and a small head that made a lot of noise and spewed out a lot of "snow".  The downhill part seemed to get the modern fan blower, high pressure spray guns, which seem to produce better snow.  Anyone else noticed a difference between the two methods?

greif wrote

I was at Bristol yesterday and I noticed the XC trails used what looked like an old fashioned snow gun (air hose, water hose, and a small head that made a lot of noise and spewed out a lot of "snow".  The downhill part seemed to get the modern fan blower, high pressure spray guns, which seem to produce better snow.  Anyone else noticed a difference between the two methods?

The old fasioned one is called a "lance". There's also many different kinds of fan guns. I also wonder if a groomer doing a "second pass" over a already cordoroy groomed trail would help as well. That would be double grooming, but one one trail recently, I noticed him make a second pass over a snowmobile track that already been groomed(he was just headed back up the mountain) and the snow was MUCH softer on that track the whole way down the mountain. So that could be a way to improve things or maybe that was a fluke. I wish I owned a ski area so I could experiment.

From http://www.technoalpin.com/USA/Facination_technology/Information/FAQ.html

What are fan guns?
Fan guns are propeller-driven machines, sometimes referred to colloquially as snow cannons. For many years, only mobile fan guns were used. As snow making technology developed, stationary installations were implemented to avoid set-up times. Fan guns are characterized by a long projection, high snow output, low wind sensitivity and flexible use. Therefore they are mainly used on wide slopes, in areas with a high demand for snow, steep terrain or open areas exposed to wind.

What are snow lances?
Snow lances generate snow in the same way as fan guns but at a greater height (by means of lance tubes). Current lance tubes measure up to 9 meters in length. The drop height is required to crystallize the snow flake, because as opposed to the fan gun, there is no propeller, or turbine. This means that projection distances are much shorter and wind sensitivity is greater. The quantity of snow produced by a lance is similar to that of a small fan gun. Lances are generally used as complete systems, equipped with a central pneumatic system.

I've lapped some pretty fun snow gun "powder" at WF in -20F weather.  When its warmer, I don't go near the guns.  I think if the particle is fully frozen before it hits the ground, it makes a big difference.

Hello powder assassin, could you please give a concrete example of a ski area "claiming what comes out of a snow gun is the same as what falls from the sky"?  That way we have some context for what seems like delusional axe grinding on your part.  Thanks

Sorry to reply late but, I was out skiing.  I still think your posts are negative because I believe you made up all these claims.  I haven't heard anyplace claiming their manmade was the same as natural.

PowderAssassin wrote

I'm so sick and tired of
claiming the same thing
 WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!



Now here's the biggest misconception
 I ski ALL THE TIME



Now, sometimes

 I don't understand,
. So who knows.


All that being said, we ABSOLUTELY NEED
HELP
big time!



can't tell the difference
never skied real powder
I question
much worse and never
 good



 too dense.
 PERIOD.

Oh
 every post I make is
 negative. I've said plenty of
 B.S.

witch hobble wrote

Hello powder assassin, could you please give a concrete example of a ski area "claiming what comes out of a snow gun is the same as what falls from the sky"?  That way we have some context for what seems like delusional axe grinding on your part.  Thanks

I was thinking the same thing.  I couldn't read PA's ramblings after that nonsensical opening.

Next time write a longer post. I'll definitely read that one.

What resorts say manmade snow is as good as natural snow

freeheeln wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

I'm so sick and tired of
claiming the same thing
 WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!


Now here's the biggest misconception
 I ski ALL THE TIME


Now, sometimes

 I don't understand,
. So who knows.


All that being said, we ABSOLUTELY NEED
HELP
big time!



can't tell the difference
never skied real powder
I question
much worse and never
 good



 too dense.
 PERIOD.

Oh
 every post I make is
 negative. I've said plenty of
 B.S.

Whitefaces standard practice is to not groom fresh blown for few days.  The exception is the fan guns in the high traffic areas

Dude you really need to go skiing.  That post must have taken you over an hour to research and write on a Saturday morning.  Go skiing and then you can post about actual exoeriences instead of what you have read about skiing on the Internet.  How many days have you skied this season?

I might read them if I actually cared.  The first one is California which I probably will never goto.  I immediately closed when I realized that.  You must not have a life to do that much research on a negative topic that no one cares about and about places no one here most likely will ever visit.

greif wrote

I was at Bristol yesterday and I noticed the XC trails used what looked like an old fashioned snow gun (air hose, water hose, and a small head that made a lot of noise and spewed out a lot of "snow".  The downhill part seemed to get the modern fan blower, high pressure spray guns, which seem to produce better snow.  Anyone else noticed a difference between the two methods?

How are the parks coming along at Bristol?

I don't understand what the complaint is about manmade.  Snow is snow, if you get to go skiing on it be grateful.  I'd love to see more nordic ski centers put in snowmaking.  

Peter Minde wrote

I don't understand what the complaint is about manmade.  Snow is snow, if you get to go skiing on it be grateful.  I'd love to see more nordic ski centers put in snowmaking.

Hey Peter Mindle...saying "snow is snow" is basically saying there's no difference between boiler plate hardpack and a 2 foot powder day since as you put it "snow is snow". Give me a break. There's no comparison. Hardpack sucks to ski. I and many others feel the same way. Powder or soft groomers is much more fun. Using your logic, there's no difference/no complaint between skiing alta or jiminy peak. Snow is Snow....lmao Why should I be "grateful" to spend a lot of money on garbage conditions? What's wrong with simply not taking my wallet out? What's wrong with moving west? What's wrong with driving further north for better snow? Something wrong with wanting good snow? I'm not a troll, it's ridiculous comments like peter mindle's that start a fight. You can't complain about price, snow quality of a ski area on here. You can't discuss ANYTHING negative. Do you maybe see why I question the people on here?  It's almost like the forum is a business marketing site for ec areas. Reminds me of fb comments getting deleted by resorts when it's ANYTHING negative at all.

Oh and I have the million dollar question for peter mindle. Why even bother going to jay peak to ski for the 355 inch average since "snow is snow". I could just ski jiminy since snow is snow and fake gun crap is the same as what falls from the sky. Just be grateful. Is that your logic PETER MINDLE? LOL Jiminy blows more than jay peak anyway.

witch hobble wrote

Hello powder assassin, could you please give a concrete example of a ski area "claiming what comes out of a snow gun is the same as what falls from the sky"?  That way we have some context for what seems like delusional axe grinding on your part.  Thanks

Here's examples of resorts saying it's almost the same thing/same quality in my opinion. You read what they say and let me know what you think. http://www.snowsummit.com/ski/mountain-info/snowmaking-grooming/
"Snowmaking Basics Man-made snow is real snow (not “artificial”) made by “guns” spraying atomized water particles under high pressure into the cold dry atmosphere, which freeze into snow particles before they hit the ground. The colder and drier the air, the more water can be put through the gun. No additive or chemical is put in the water.  The only difference between natural and man-made snow is that the latter falls as small round pellets due to
the air turbulence, while natural usually comes in the form of small to large flakes.  However, in windy conditions even natural snow will be blown into small pellets or even marble-sized balls called “grapple”.  
Natural snow can be very wet or dry, depending on its water content, the same as with man-made.  After two or three days on the ski runs, natural snow becomes indistinguishable from man-made as both are subject
to skier traffic, grooming, and the freeze/thaw cycle."
"http://www.bluemountain.ca/winter_conditions_snowmaking.htm"
"It's a common misconception that machine made snow is "artificial". In
fact, machine made snow is more or less the same as the white stuff that
falls from the sky."
http://www.appskimtn.com/about-us/snowmaking
"When machine-made snow is groomed or manufactured with a drier quality,
skiers and snowboarders enjoy the resulting snow surface, noticing little
difference to groomed natural snow."

If you read that, they are basically saying little difference, when in fact, there's a HUGE difference between man made and natural. This is a common way resorts talk about their man made stuff. Rather than just calling it was it really is. BASE MAKING. Period. Oh and it's more than wind that affects natural stuff, you can get a face shot from a drift.

Outright b.s. And "Graupel"....which they spelled WRONG is not SNOW. Just the way sleet is not snow.Anyone remember okemo radios ads from last year? Saying something along the lines of we don't need snow, we have snow guns ect. ect. Wish I had a copy of that radio ad. Oh and never mind all the b.s. on ski areas facebook and snow reports page calling their snow as good as the real stuff. Oh and then there are of course the people in internet forums saying it's the same thing. That's COMMON. Same type of people that try to pump up the ec to something it's not and talk about how great skiing ice is ect.

Coach Z wrote

Dude you really need to go skiing.  That post must have taken you over an hour to research and write on a Saturday morning.  Go skiing and then you can post about actual exoeriences instead of what you have read about skiing on the Internet.  How many days have you skied this season?

It took me 15 minutes. I've been talking about this stuff for years. It's all in my head already. Finding ski resorts to link to took the longest with a quick 5 minute google search copy and paste.
THIS IS ALL ABOUT MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. HELLO!!! MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES OF SKIING MAN MADE AND NATURAL AND THE DIFFERENCE. I've had 10 sessions so far this year. I SKI FOR FUN. PEOPLE ON HERE SEEM TO SKI TO "PROVE SOMETHING". I like ACTUAL snow. Not hardpack ice crap. As I said, sometimes the guns get awfully close and are really fun after being freshly blown! But sometimes not and natural snow is the best. Common sense.

Why would I quit skiing glade? I've had plenty of good sessions on soft snow groomers and 2 pow days already. I know how to get what I want. Would I get more/better days if I lived elsewhere? Obviously. This whole thread is about how natural snow is better than snow gun snow. Not me quitting. Are you saying I'm wrong?

So if your ski experience sucks so bad, have you thought about just giving it up?  It sounds like skiing causes you a lot of undue stress.  Strange because the ski season seems to do the opposite for me.

This kid needs a girlfriend.

raisingarizona wrote

This kid needs a girlfriend.

 What's wrong with his current one

PowderAssassin wrote

natural snow is the best.

I doubt anyone here would disagree with that.

So wtf are you all riled up about?