Mt van Hoevenberg: Untapped Commercial Value

     Commenting on the post about Glens Falls Post Star’s editorial on tax funds for ORDA, someone wrote “The bobsled, and Mt Vanho complex has no private commercial worth and would fetch next to nothing at auction unless you could develop the land somehow around it.”

     I respectfully disagree.  Mt van Hoevenberg is the top cross country ski area in New York and one of the top 5 in the northeast, and deserves better than the benign neglect it's received for 25 years.

     Mount van Hoevenberg has plenty of commercial value, if only ORDA would make an effort to market it.  While researching a story for another news outlet, I attended ORDA’s June board meeting.  They were very proud of their “outside the box” marketing efforts for Whiteface last winter, which included social media and even billboards on NYC subway platforms.  So far as I’m aware, no equivalent effort exists for van Ho.  
 
     When your marketing plan is:

1.  A couple of business card-sized magazine ads shilling the annual 50 k citizens’ race, and

2.   Hoping to sell Gold Passes to busloads of tourists (package deal including 1 day at Whiteface, 1 day at the Olympic ice rink, 1 day at Mt van Ho), of course you’re going to report negligible revenue for van Ho.

     ORDA needs to do a better job marketing van Ho as a destination cross-country ski resort.  They have the trail system and LP has the after-hours amenities.  But if you don’t let people know you’re out there, you’re invisible.  I wonder how many NY metro skiers plan a week at Trapp Family Lodge, Bretton Woods or Craftsbury VT, without even considering Lake Placid.  

     Perhaps ORDA doesn’t market Mt van Hoevenberg because they would then have to put money into improvements.  They turned down the opportunity to host world cup biathlon races in part because they would have had to invest in infrastructure.  Sure it would have meant spending money.  But they lost priceless national and international TV exposure, which would benefit the town as a whole, not just van Ho.  

     With the new convention center, ORDA seems more concerned about simply filling hotel beds than their original mission.  If they leveraged ALL of their properties, they’d realize more revenue.

You made excellent points Peter. I've wondered about the Van Ho XC trails, thinking... Olympic and in a beautiful area, they should be great trails. Wonder how much they do get used? Definitely would be a waste if they go under utilized.

Snowballs wrote

You made excellent points Peter. I've wondered about the Van Ho XC trails, thinking... Olympic and in a beautiful area, they should be great trails. Wonder how much they do get used? Definitely would be a waste if they go under utilized.

     - I think Mt van Ho had 30,000 visitors last year.  With 50 k of trails, the place doesn't seem crowded, especially when you get far away from the lodge.  If they worked at it, they could increase visitation significantly.

It is sad to read this as the same thing can be said about Gore. Gore just does not have enough marketing  and zero marketing in the NY Metro area. This is part of the chicken/egg thing going on in North Creek. ORDA is content to keep Gore a 'day' area and not have what amounts to a more mainstream competitor 90 minutes closer to NYC. At some point Gore's upgrades will be noticed; the question is when?

Thanks Peter. Compare those numbers to Gore/Face where there's less trail( but wider ) and 3-4 times the visitors and one sees Van Ho is likely not crowded.

X-C skiing is not commercially viably - you are competing against skiing in the woods for free and the sport is just not that popular except in parts of europe.  Orda can not get a viable return on marketing investment in a sport that is not going to make money period.  Sorry but it is what it is.

ausable skier wrote

X-C skiing is not commercially viably - you are competing against skiing in the woods for free and the sport is just not that popular except in parts of europe.  Orda can not get a viable return on marketing investment in a sport that is not going to make money period.  Sorry but it is what it is.

I would suggest that the continued existence of the Cascade Cross-Country Ski Center next to Mt. Van Hoevenberg would contradict that. I certainly don't know whether they make or lose money, but the fact that they've been operating for as long as I've been going to Lake Placid on a regular basis (this will be my 9th season) suggests that they must be making something.

As the original post points out ... it's simply a matter of proper and effective marketing. Look at the Full Moon ski nights that Cascade holds, that's effective marketing. If ORDA did some outside the box thinking, I'm sure they could find ways to attract more people to Mt. Van Hoevenberg and potentially turn it into a profit maker.

I went out there a couple of times two winters ago and I really enjoyed it. I definitely plan to go back this year.

As much as I love X-country skiing I don't think Van Ho will ever be profitable even if properly marketed. True, Cascade seems to be doing good but they are not just a X-Country venue(Ski shop, clothing sales, Bar etc) With the state of the populace in this country (obesity, couch potatoes etc) you'll never get enough people to pay to essentially get a great workout in a beautiful setting. I'd like to think otherwise but just take a look around at the physical appearance of most of the population, excluding the Lake Placid area which has an over abundance of people in pretty good shape.

This was at the bottom of the most recent email I received from Whiteface.  

I saw their Facebook page yesterday actually.... welcome to the 21st century.  Let's hope they get some value out of it.

Peter Minde wrote

Mt van Hoevenberg is the top cross country ski area in New York and one of the top 5 in the northeast, and deserves better than the benign neglect it's received for 25 years.

Mount van Hoevenberg has plenty of commercial value, if only ORDA would make an effort to market it.

Peter, I agree that Mt Van Hoevenberg is an outstanding cross country center.  Your 30K visitors number is right, and that translated to $300K in xc revenue last year (ORDA 2010-11 Annl Report).  I think those are pretty good numbers for a XC center.  I don't know what Garnet Hill Lodge and Lapland Lake do for annual skier visits, but I doubt it's close to 30K.

There were a couple comments about profitability.  An xc center has no snowmaking, no lifts, very little grooming, and few employees.  At $300K gross revenues, MVH can't be losing much if it's losing at all.  I bet it's actually a positive bottom line.  

As for their mktg efforts, it seems on par with the other Adk xc centers (i.e. not much, as you described).  While there's not much advertising specifically for Mt Van Hoevenberg, xc skiing is at least included in the general advertising that is done for Lake Placid as a winter sports destination.  For families, couples or individuals considering a week-long cross country skiing vacation, I'd argue that they're equally aware of Lk Placid as a destination as they are of the others you mention.  There just aren't that many people who plan xc ski vacations, and the ones who do are likely pretty avid xc skiers who are already aware of Lake Placid and Mt Van Hoevenberg.  I say that as a pretty avid xc skier myself who has done multi-day xc ski vacations in the Northeast.

I'm not looking to let ORDA off the hook here, undoubtedly there's more that could be done to promote MVH.  But I do think that they're capturing their share of the market.

By the way, nice blog Peter.  If you're doing 3 hr roller ski sessions, YOU are one serious xc skier.
Jeff

I don't see how anyone can make the arguement that $10 in revenue per skier visit and only $300k in total yearly revenues is a commercially viable operation.  The problem is that this is a sport crunchy folks can go do on the ADK's numerous hiking trails for free so while its a better product at Mt VanHo you can not charge enough to make it viable.

after salaries, grooming, overhead, depreciation etc this is a loser big time for Orda and if it was private there is no way it could be viable much less profitable in anyway that spur a private owner to invest in it.  I suspect that existing X-C operators have owned their land forever - you don't see new owners or new operations sprouting up do you

XC seems like its a nice winter side line for a golf course to allow the owner to provide the golf staff with year round jobs to keep good people.  In comparison a good week of golf would make more than Mt Vanho XC does in a season.  Maybe the answer is to turn Mt Vanho into a golf course in the summer so it could make some money.

ausable skier wrote

after salaries, grooming, overhead, depreciation etc this is a loser big time for Orda and if it was private there is no way it could be viable much less profitable in anyway that spur a private owner to invest in it.

Depreciation? That would assume ORDA actually paid for something. Do you know for a fact they did pay for anything ? If ORDA is taking a depreciation charge for Van Ho that's likely very misleading. Kinda like if they take a future depreciation charge for the Convention Center... Hey! Another chance for ORDA to feed Boob Bait to Bubbas.

ausable skier wrote

 I suspect that existing X-C operators have owned their land forever - you don't see new owners or new operations sprouting up do you

 

Well, not sure a lack of new XC centers reflects much on earning potentail as there's no new alpine ski centers either.

As far as "existing X-C operators have owned their land forever " ....land they likely had to pay for and probably still are paying for and YEARLY paying taxes. Unlike ORDA who gets their stuff given to them and pays no taxes.

Not sure what Gore took in... If Van Ho took in 300k with their expenses being drastically less than Gore, then it's very possible Van Ho made good dough for a small operation. They likely could make more.

I said recently I would be surprised if ALL the Olympic Venues are the money pit you guys/some people make them out to be. Nobody's ever offered any reasoning or proof and seem to be simply repeating gossip.

ausable skier wrote

after salaries, grooming, overhead, depreciation etc this is a loser big time for Orda and if it was private there is no way it could be viable much less profitable in anyway that spur a private owner to invest in it.  I suspect that existing X-C operators have owned their land forever - you don't see new owners or new operations sprouting up do you

Well, we'll never know for sure because ORDA doesn't publish expenses by venue, just revenue.  However, having skied Mount Van Hoevenberg many times, and being familiar with cross country ski operations in general, I have a hard time believing that that it's a "loser big time."

if it were a private commercial enterprise it would have depreciation.  I don't beleive the Orda accounts for depreciation its its income statement

if this were a commerical operation that had to invest in land buildings equipment etc. and interest expense for that Mt Vanho would be losing $1M+ per year.  As it is it loses in the low to mid 5 figures per year now for the X-C operation - if you factor in the sliding facility it loses close to $1m from what i've heard.

The only venues of Orda that make money are Gore, WF and the hockey / skating arenas.  That is an accepted fact around these parts.

The most telling stat is that the X-C operation only brings in $10 per skier visit in revenue that is so pathetic that their is no way possible that it could turn a profit.

Don't get me wrong - Mt Vanho is a nice asset for the community.  My kid uses it and if i had more free time I would more often as well.  The premise of this thread is that Mt Vanho has commercial promise and that is just not accurate.  If it wasn't for Orda it would be just a trail system that was available but not commercial in any way shape or form.  

If you want to make money on it build a golf course and some condos.  That is not going to happen so lets just accept that Orda loses money as part of its mission on this venue and move on.

ausable skier wrote

if it were a private commercial enterprise it would have depreciation.  I don't beleive the Orda accounts for depreciation its its income statement

ORDA's audited financials include a provision for depreciation.  It was $6.8 million last fiscal year. That's for all of ORDA's facilities.

ausable skier wrote

As it is it loses in the low to mid 5 figures per year now for the X-C operation - if you factor in the sliding facility it loses close to $1m from what i've heard.

The only venues of Orda that make money are Gore, WF and the hockey / skating arenas.  That is an accepted fact around these parts.

Beleive what you will, there's no way for anyone to determine the actual XC profit or loss.  "Mid-5 figures" is nothing more than unsubstantiated heresay.  As far as the sliding facility is concerned, I think we've been discussing the xc operation solely in this thread.  You may well be right that the sliding facility is much more costly to operate, although (broken record) trying to pin down an actual profit or loss figure is impossible. $1m is nothing more than somebody's wildass guess, ditto for the mid-5 figures.

These venues are not free to use. Not sure what the bobsled charges would be, maybe free for the national team, maybe not. Maybe the National Olympice Committee supports it financially. Same with the ski jump.

The aerials jump center charges, they sell tickets to events and have TV coverage so likely some revenue from that.

Just saying there's more to consider on the Olympic venues than just rumors. Rumors are some times generated as smoke screens.

Audits and accounting doesn't tell the whole picture, never have. Recently, the standards are being tighten up "somewhat" for private businesses, but they're still very vague. State reports are even more nebulous.

Saw a business report recently about this. Some company's audit costs have gone WAAAAAY up(5-10 fold) as the audit firm has to do more thorough work AND charges even more money simply because it's likely they'll have to defend their work in Court. The more shakey/questionable a company's finances are, the more they pay for audit reports. Even so, the audit firm rarely comes out and says we found fraud, massive waste or this company is heading for the crapper.

State agencies are even more "unaccountable" and even less prosecutorial, so to speak.

Adk Jeff wrote

Beleive what you will, there's no way for anyone to determine the actual XC profit or loss.  "Mid-5 figures" is nothing more than unsubstantiated heresay.  As far as the sliding facility is concerned, I think we've been discussing the xc operation solely in this thread.  You may well be right that the sliding facility is much more costly to operate, although (broken record) trying to pin down an actual profit or loss figure is impossible. $1m is nothing more than somebody's wildass guess, ditto for the mid-5 figures.

an olympics ago Verizon sponsored the sliding center to the tune around $1m.  The press release at the time said that this turns the sliding facility from a large loss to a  slight profit thus the $1m figure.  Normally they don't say that kind of stuff but the sponsorship guy was tooting his own horn at landing the deal.

All you have to do is follow the dots - if orda as a whole turns a small profit and we know that Gore, WF and the hockey arena make money the other venues have to be losing a crap load of money.  There are not that many other venues and Mt VanHo has to be the biggest loser.  Of course there also is Orda overhead and management to suck up all the extra cash and the top management is likely paid well but that is a whole nother thread.

Peter, you started a good thread. We've been debating ORDA's finances here for years, so please indulge us some leeway.

Aussie, you're making assumptions again. Bad juju. Here are some " dots " to follow.

Snowballs wrote

 Audits and accounting doesn't tell the whole picture, never have. State agencies are even more "unaccountable" and even less prosecutorial, so to speak.

Ok, depreciation charges in a private business are understandable. Machinery,etc wears out and must be replaced at an expense/cost to the private business, aka they have to pay for it themselves.

BUT in ORDA's case, the State pays for it. So, ORDA takes a depreciation of an imaginary loss, 6.8 million dollars, and then subtracts very real existing dollars, 6.8 million dollars, from their bottom line profits. Yet they have lost nothing as the State pays for their equipment, properties,etc. ORDA can't even sell any of their properties so no depreciation in marketable value. Again, no loss.

ORDA doesn't pay any taxes, so there's no justification for taking an imaginary loss to lower their tax bill.

So what happened to the 6.8 million dollars? Where is it at? Why isn't it listed as an asset, money ahead in the bank? Extrapolate that by 10 years and you have.....68 million real existing dollars! By 20 years, 136 million dollars.

Next, they will be taking a depreciation charge for the Convention Center taking more imaginary losses from real existing dollars.

Now, we have to add this to ORDA's tax free, mortgage free, improvement cost free - business model (plus other huge savings). Keep in mind ORDA's lift ticket prices are at the top of the spectrum.

Anybody know of any missing piece to this puzzle? Please add it.

ausable skier wrote

<..and we know that Gore, WF and the hockey arena make money

We don't know that.