My Solution to I70 Traffic Problems

snoloco wrote

The Moffat Tunnel cost 15.6 million back in 1927 which translates to half a billion dollars today.  It's 6.1 miles long, and I have 14.5 miles of tunnel in this system.  I'm going to round up and multiply it by 3, so 1.5 billion for the tunnels.

According to Wikipedia it cost $24M, not $15.6M and 26 people died, it was wood lined (later lined in concrete) and is only a single track wide. You can't use even the $24M even bumped up for inflation because the construction standards are completely different and the issues associated with work safety are completely different. OSHA would be all over this. The project was conceived in 1902, battled in the courts and finances raised to start by 1922 and  finished in 1927. That was 25 years - think of the battles one would go through to get this done today and think of how that money could be better spent - free tuition for all would generate more revenue and do more social good.

I have to hand it to you for sitting around and trying to solve the worlds problems.  My engineer friends area always directed by some sort of gov't agency or business to design something, lets say a parking lot, so the gov't agency says they want all these fancy lights, electric car charging stations, moving sidewalks, and kiosks that you can ask a question and get an answer.  So they design what they are told to do.  They put a price tag on it, let's say 5 million.  The gov't agency says we only have 1 million to build it.  So they end up with just a basic parking lot.  Engineers get to think outside reality with no idea about funding, no worries about money, and no realistic expectations.  Don't be one of those engineers.

You really need to do some research snoloco:

Colorado has a what is called TABOR, it severely limits tax collection and taxation.  Unlike New York where you get taxed to death, Colorado has a very low tax rates. In return the roads are in poor condition.  Schools are underfunded etc etc

Ten plus years ago the state asked the voters (which they have to do in order to raise taxes) to raise 1 billion in tax dollars to study and design a train into the mtns.  It was voted down.

Look at RTD in the metro area, they have lied to the tax payers about the costs, time line, and what they can deliver in terms of a light rail service to the metro area.  Why would tax payers trust someone building a train to the mtns when they cannot even deliver on a train system in the city.

The type of people who go skiing have money.  They have cars that cost 50k or more.  The cars are private, have tv's, wifi, and all your personal belongings at arms reach.  So you are going to ask these upper middle class people to schlep it on a train and not their 65k SUV?

Right now there is a bus line that goes from downtown denver to glenwood springs.  The bus line is underused, subsided heavily by the state.  That amounts to a failure.  So you think for some reason people are going to use a train when they don't use the bus?

Each town and county along I70 has bus service.  It is under used and under funded.  There is the Summit Stage, ECO, and RFTA.  Each could use a couple million more a year for operating costs.  Start there.

Trains are a nice idea, but that's it.  A nice idea.  Maybe in 100 years.  

frank wright wrote

The type of people who go skiing have money.  They have cars that cost 50k or more.  The cars are private, have tv's, wifi, and all your personal belongings at arms reach.  So you are going to ask these upper middle class people to schlep it on a train and not their 65k SUV?

Right now there is a bus line that goes from downtown denver to glenwood springs.  The bus line is underused, subsided heavily by the state.  That amounts to a failure.  So you think for some reason people are going to use a train when they don't use the bus?

Each town and county along I70 has bus service.  It is under used and under funded.  There is the Summit Stage, ECO, and RFTA.  Each could use a couple million more a year for operating costs.  Start there.

Yup. America is addicted to their oversized personal trucks like a crack whore to, well, crack. You will have to pry their 50,000 dollar pickups trucks from their dead, cold, steering wheel hands before they give them up, especially now that gas will be cheap for years. (What's up with all these guys in ties I see driving shiny pickups? Are they driving to their landscaping jobs?) I mean, I see a copy of Motor Trend or even Automobile on the magazine rack, and they're doing test comparisons of three ton SUVs. Good lord.

I spend a fair amount of time in Baltimore, an old school eastern city with a light rail system. The white, middle and upper class people never use the system. It's there just for the poor. You drive (well, just barely, in rush hour stop and go) along 83 to downtown, and watch a half filled train zip by next to the highway. But, no way those people in those cars can be convinced to use public transit, like New Yorkers and Boston residents. I want my freedom! Hey, maybe that's the solution! Make it so miserable and expensive to have a car up in the mountains, like in NYC, that the train would be a viable alternative to most people. So, Jack up the parking lot rates to 50 bucks a day, and tow anybody for most any reason. Hire a bunch of homeless people to smash windows and break into cars while parked outside garages. That should work.

Powder Magazine has the solution:

Colorado Ski Traffic Solved
Avoid I-70 (and the outdoors) at Denver's new indoor ski center SNÖBAHN

This is funny. I was just thinking about this post last night and the stigma or stereotypes we have about public transport in this country. It seems like the only way to get those people to ride the train would be to jack the prices so the poor couldn't afford it and sell it as a luxury experience. Champagne and caviar cars, a cigar lounge and the like. That though, would be SO wasteful!

Colorado has a still relatively new commuter bus service called Bustang.  There are 3 routes.  One runs North of Denver on I25 and one goes south on I25.  The third goes to Glenwood Springs on I70, but only runs once a day.  I researched it and the I25 routes are actually doing pretty well with ridership.  The I70 route was mentioned earlier as underutilized.

All factors equal, people are ALWAYS more likely to leave their cars in favor of a train than a bus.  Why?  Because the train uses its own right of way and is not effected by road conditions.  The bus is effected by those things, and many people think that if they'll face the same traffic and they have a car, they're going to drive.  There are exceptions like the express bus lane in the Lincoln Tunnel that goes directly into Port Authority, but those are not at all common.

WiFi and power outlets are definitely draws to ridership, and almost all new coach buses are delivered with them installed.  People might leave their cars for the bus if they can use their electronic devices or do work that they couldn't do while driving.  Many commuter trains don't have either because equipment lasts longer than buses, so it takes a lot more time to replace an entire fleet, and there are more attractions to taking the train over the car even without them.  Amtrak has WiFi and power outlets because they carry riders much longer distances and need the extra amenities.

snoloco wrote

All factors equal, people are ALWAYS more likely to leave their cars in favor of a train than a bus.  

No, this is wrong. Listen, if you're going to do this, back your arguments up with published research. Otherwise, you just sound like your ambitions are in politics, not science or engineering.

I have traveled all over Europe via train. They are fast ,convenient, clean, on time. The polar opposite  of the US rail system. The public knows this , thus trains will never work here..

That's not the reason trains don't work as well here as they do in Europe.  It's because the country is very spread out.  Most cities are not close enough to each other to make having a train between them practical.  The exception is of course in the Northeast.  Amtrak carries 3x more passengers than airlines do between New York and Washington DC.

Benny Profane wrote

snoloco wrote

All factors equal, people are ALWAYS more likely to leave their cars in favor of a train than a bus.  

No, this is wrong. Listen, if you're going to do this, back your arguments up with published research. Otherwise, you just sound like your ambitions are in politics, not science or engineering.

How about you cite something that proves what I said wrong rather that just say that it is (when I know it isn't).

I read a lot of articles on topics like these, so I don't always remember exactly where my information came from.

I read that it is often impossible to get developers to commit to build near a bus route, while getting them to build near a train station is a lot easier.  Why?  Because more people are attracted to living near a train than they would to living near a bus.

I just recently read on the internet that Bat boy married Dolphin girl and they are having twins.

raisingarizona wrote

I just recently read on the internet that Bat boy married Dolphin girl and they are having twins.

Link please

raisingarizona wrote

I just recently read on the internet that Bat boy married Dolphin girl and they are having twins.

hahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahaah

raisingarizona wrote

I just recently read on the internet that Bat boy married Dolphin girl and they are having twins.

I just read on the internet that they aborted the twins due to concerns that the zika virus would increase chances for white nose syndrome.  Plus the Japanese announced they plan to lift all fishing bans on dolphins so they can wipe them out!  

snoloco wrote

Colorado has a still relatively new commuter bus service called Bustang.  There are 3 routes.  One runs North of Denver on I25 and one goes south on I25.  The third goes to Glenwood Springs on I70, but only runs once a day.  I researched it and the I25 routes are actually doing pretty well with ridership.  The I70 route was mentioned earlier as underutilized.

All factors equal, people are ALWAYS more likely to leave their cars in favor of a train than a bus.  Why?  Because the train uses its own right of way and is not effected by road conditions.  The bus is effected by those things, and many people think that if they'll face the same traffic and they have a car, they're going to drive.  There are exceptions like the express bus lane in the Lincoln Tunnel that goes directly into Port Authority, but those are not at all common.

WiFi and power outlets are definitely draws to ridership, and almost all new coach buses are delivered with them installed.  People might leave their cars for the bus if they can use their electronic devices or do work that they couldn't do while driving.  Many commuter trains don't have either because equipment lasts longer than buses, so it takes a lot more time to replace an entire fleet, and there are more attractions to taking the train over the car even without them.  Amtrak has WiFi and power outlets because they carry riders much longer distances and need the extra amenities.

Once again, you are coming at it from a northeast perspective where public transportation somewhat works.  The Midwest and West is different.  Public transit there does not work.  People don't use it even if its there.  I just got back from a week back at home in St. Louis.  I watched dozens of their light rail trains go by empty while cars cruised passed on the interstate.  One of the reasons that public transit is popular here is due to the lack of roads and the lack of parking.  This is not a problem as you go west.  Cities were built with the car in mind and the car is king.  You are not going to convince people otherwise... especially the upper crust.  Hell, even look at NYC... how many actual suits do you see in the subway?  How many do you see using cabs/uber/black cars instead?  

And... just for kicks... the Denver metro area is 1500 square miles larger then the NYC Metro.... and Denver metro has 2.6 million people where NYC metro has 19 million.  That is why you don't see public transit there.... and won't see it.  The numbers simply don't work.  

I thought this thread was about Bat Boy and dolphin girl???  

I've lived in the Northeast my entire life, so obviously I'll have a Northeast perspective.

Lack of roads is definitely the case in this location.  That's why I70 is jammed every weekend.

Vail charges Manhattan prices for parking unless you want to ride a bus to the lodge, so there's either a lack of space, or they just want to nickel and dime their guests and cater to the rich.

snoloco wrote

I've lived in the Northeast my entire life, so obviously I'll have a Northeast perspective.

Lack of roads is definitely the case in this location.  That's why I70 is jammed every weekend.

Vail charges Manhattan prices for parking unless you want to ride a bus to the lodge, so there's either a lack of space, or they just want to nickel and dime their guests and cater to the rich.

I70 is jammed every weekend because, it's the only road. Like the road that leads out to the Hamptons.

Vail charges that much because they could care less about the locals, and really don't want or need them there. All the better they pay 40 bucks for a full days parking. Screw em anyway, Vail sucks, so, no loss. But, it's the only mountain out there that comes close. Even Beaver Creek is free, although at the base of a shuttle.

Footer wrote

snoloco wrote

Colorado has a still relatively new commuter bus service called Bustang.  There are 3 routes.  One runs North of Denver on I25 and one goes south on I25.  The third goes to Glenwood Springs on I70, but only runs once a day.  I researched it and the I25 routes are actually doing pretty well with ridership.  The I70 route was mentioned earlier as underutilized.

All factors equal, people are ALWAYS more likely to leave their cars in favor of a train than a bus.  Why?  Because the train uses its own right of way and is not effected by road conditions.  The bus is effected by those things, and many people think that if they'll face the same traffic and they have a car, they're going to drive.  There are exceptions like the express bus lane in the Lincoln Tunnel that goes directly into Port Authority, but those are not at all common.

WiFi and power outlets are definitely draws to ridership, and almost all new coach buses are delivered with them installed.  People might leave their cars for the bus if they can use their electronic devices or do work that they couldn't do while driving.  Many commuter trains don't have either because equipment lasts longer than buses, so it takes a lot more time to replace an entire fleet, and there are more attractions to taking the train over the car even without them.  Amtrak has WiFi and power outlets because they carry riders much longer distances and need the extra amenities.

Once again, you are coming at it from a northeast perspective where public transportation somewhat works.  The Midwest and West is different.  Public transit there does not work.  People don't use it even if its there.  I just got back from a week back at home in St. Louis.  I watched dozens of their light rail trains go by empty while cars cruised passed on the interstate.  One of the reasons that public transit is popular here is due to the lack of roads and the lack of parking.  This is not a problem as you go west.  Cities were built with the car in mind and the car is king.  You are not going to convince people otherwise... especially the upper crust.  Hell, even look at NYC... how many actual suits do you see in the subway?  How many do you see using cabs/uber/black cars instead?  

And... just for kicks... the Denver metro area is 1500 square miles larger then the NYC Metro.... and Denver metro has 2.6 million people where NYC metro has 19 million.  That is why you don't see public transit there.... and won't see it.  The numbers simply don't work.

Yup. NYC was formed by the subway. The Bronx was farmland before they put it in. Denver and most cities west of the Mississippi grew around cars and highways. Not exactly sure, other than a 3-4 dollar gas tax, how we can even think of solving that issue.

Benny Profane wrote

I70 is jammed every weekend because, it's the only road. Like the road that leads out to the Hamptons.

Vail charges that much because they could care less about the locals, and really don't want or need them there. All the better they pay 40 bucks for a full days parking. Screw em anyway, Vail sucks, so, no loss. But, it's the only mountain out there that comes close. Even Beaver Creek is free, although at the base of a shuttle.

I don't think Bat Boy and dolphin girl would concur with your assessment here.