Okemo: Another Bubble Chair

This time the Jackson Gore Express is getting it's chairs changed to bubble chairs.  Would like to ride it, but the terrain there still sucks, however, the Jackson Gore lift does serve the least repetitive terrain on the mountain.

http://www.okemo.com/mountain-info/whats-new/

"Okemo Mountain Resort is preparing for the 2015/16 winter season with more improvements. In addition to a second bubble chair at Jackson Gore, Okemo is installing a new chairlift and creating a new trail at South Face Village, and adding snowmaking to two trails at Jackson Gore."

Sno does this mean that Okemo added trails without immediately installing snowmaking?

Yes, but they were both secondary trails while there were plenty of other trails on the same lift that had it right away.  The Ski Bowl had no snowmaking at all right away and didn't even have the trails it should have had.  That resulted in a useless out of the way section that required a mile and a half trek down a not very interesting trail that was flat as a pancake to get  to, and 2 lift rides and 2 full complete runs to get out of.

Jackson Gore was cut in 2002 with the lift installed and Quantum Leap, Vortex, Tuckered Out, Limelight, and Sunset Strip cut.  I'm certain that at least 1 route down had snowmaking right away.  The other trails were cut later and had snowmaking added either right away, or got it a few years later.

The Ski Bowl was cut in 2010 with the lift installed and Peaceful Valley, Oak Ridge, Moxham, and 46er cut.  None had any snowmaking right away and as a result, the entire section was left to rot for at least a couple years.  Here's how it should've been done.  

2009:  Cut Eagle's and a couple glades leading to it.

2010:  Build lift.  Cut all trails that were initially cut, plus Abenaki.  Peaceful Valley and Abenaki get snowmaking right away.  Snowmaking gets added to Eagle's nest and Pipeline.

2011:  Add snowmaking to Oak Ridge and Moxham.

2012:  Add snowmaking to 46er.

2013:  Cut Hudson trail with snowmaking right away.

Your disdain for Gore operations and expansion (budgets) is well documented.  I don't need to revisit that and I certainly don't need a Gore history lesson.

I was asking a different question: how do you feel about mountains with $90 lift tickets and slopeside lodging taking things one step at a time?

They took things one step at a time, but did it in a practical way that still allowed the section to be useful and open consistently.  They did not take things one step at a time in a way that didn't allow the new section to be open and useful consistently.

That's honestly my biggest gripe about Gore.  I wish the High Peaks Chair and North Quad were upgraded, but those are things that I can live with for a couple extra years and wait for them to be upgraded.  At least I can still access the terrain, although a bit slower and less reliably.  However, even the High Peaks Chair and AE1, as unreliable as they are/were, they still were open more consistently than the Ski Bowl lift was during those times.  A lift cannot operate unless there is at least one run that it serves that has snow.  A trail can still be open from other lifts or as hike to if the main lift that serves it is out of commission.  You could still access the trails served by the AE1 via the gondola and you can still ski the Dark Side by going down and around taking the North Quad, Gondola and Straigtbrook Quad.  If there was no snow on Wood Out, you could still access those trails as hike to.  The trails are USELESS if there is no snow.

Sno, can you tell us how many days you skied Gore in each of the past three winters please?

Harvey wrote

Your disdain for Gore operations and expansion (budgets) is well documented.  I don't need to revisit that and I certainly don't need a Gore history lesson.

OMG, you read my mind!

And he obviously still doesn't get or want to recognize that you can't compare the operations/capital improvements of a privately owned area with that of a state owned entity....let alone one owned by the Empire State!

snoloco wrote

the entire section was left to rot for at least a couple years.

Yea it sucked.

Sorry folks I can't help it. On the upside, sno promised he'd be at Stratton this year, so maybe he'll focus on something else.

Sno Plattekill is now up to maybe 50% snowmaking and has been operating since 1953. Do you believe that Plattekill should never have opened?

Harvey wrote

Yea it sucked.

 One day of that is better than 30 days on man made crap

Harvey wrote

Sno Plattekill is now up to maybe 50% snowmaking and has been operating since 1953. Do you believe that Plattekill should never have opened?

Times have changed since 1953.  Back then, snowmaking didn't really exist at all.  Now, it is absolutely essential for a good ski experience.  Don't upgrade it, and you'll get left behind.  Plattekill has been upgrading their snowmaking consistently for a while now, and I'm sure they'll continue to do this.  If they didn't they'd get left behind and close down.

skimore wrote

 One day of that is better than 30 days on man made crap

Would those pictures look any different if there were proper snowmaking on those trails?  The answer is absolutely not.  The glades would look exactly the same and if there was enough snow, the trails would as well.  If there wasn't enough snow for the trails to look the same with manmade underneath, then there wouldn't be nearly enough snow for the trail to open without a manmade base.  Harvey got lucky and there was enough snow for those trails to be open, that also means that there would be enough snow to completely cover any manmade base that existed beforehand.

Ask yourself this.  On the majority of ski days which are not powder days, would you rather ski on manmade snow on the whole mountain, or on a fraction of the mountain?  I'd take the whole mountain any day.

If another crappy season like 06-07 would show the people on here that snowmaking is an absolute must for an ec trail to be consistently open, it would almost be worth it.  However, a bad season usually means that my home mountain opens extra late ruining Christmas for me.  Try and make it through another dreadful season.  When the Ski Bowl never opens and 1/3rd of the mountain is open for Christmas week with Six Flags style lines at the few lifts that are open, you'll all be saying the phrase "snoloco was right" and wanting more snowmaking for the next season to make sure that never happened again in your lifetime.  I know that even with subpar temps not much of the time, Hunter and Windham can get all their lifts running by 12/26.  This should be what each and every mountain on the entire ec strives for.

snoloco wrote

Times have changed since 1953.  Back then, snowmaking didn't really exist at all.  Now, it is absolutely essential for a good ski experience.  Don't upgrade it, and you'll get left behind.  Plattekill has been upgrading their snowmaking consistently for a while now, and I'm sure they'll continue to do this.  If they didn't they'd get left behind and close down.

So it's ok to work slowly and steadily towards the goal if you can't afford to do it all immediately?

Nobody is arguing that snowmaking is optional for viability in the east. You seem to be saying that incremental progress is unacceptable.  It seems that if Gore was smaller with 100% snowmaking you'd think it was a better mountain, primarily because you would have to think about terrain that wasn't open.

I accept that that day in the Bowl was an exception. But I REMEMBER IT five years later. I don't remember opening day, or days when I skied manmade.  Most of my great memories involve some kind of new snow.  I disagree with the idea that manmade snow is essential for a good experience.

snoloco wrote

 snowmaking is absolutely essential for a good ski experience.

your opinion

snoloco wrote

 Don't upgrade it, and you'll get left behind  and close down.

mrg hickory

snoloco wrote

 ruining Christmas for me.  

expand your horizons

snoloco wrote

you'll all be saying the phrase "snoloco was right"

said no one ever

snoloco wrote

Harvey got lucky

he met up with mib

skimore wrote

Harvey wrote

Yea it sucked.

 One day of that is better than 30 days on man made crap

Man made snow compares to natural like Veleta compares to a nice Vermont cedar, they look about the same and you can put them both on a sandwich but that's where the similarity ends.

Harvey wrote

Nobody is arguing that snowmaking is optional for viability in the east. You seem to be saying that incremental progress is unacceptable.  It seems that if Gore was smaller with 100% snowmaking you'd think it was a better mountain, primarily because you would have to think about terrain that wasn't open.

I would think Gore was a better mountain if the Ski Bowl didn't exist and the rest of the mountain had 100% snowmaking or close to it.  I never said that incremental progress unacceptable.  It is completely and totally unacceptable for there to be a lift that doesn't have a single run that can be opened with snowmaking.  When a new lift is installed, it must have at least one run off of it that can be opened by 12/26, otherwise, the mountain got in over their head and shouldn't have built it.

What year did that rule go into effect?

Ski Bowl was there first.....just sayin

snoloco wrote

I would think Gore was a better mountain if the Ski Bowl didn't exist and the rest of the mountain had 100% snowmaking or close to it.  I never said that incremental progress unacceptable.  It is completely and totally unacceptable for there to be a lift that doesn't have a single run that can be opened with snowmaking.  When a new lift is installed, it must have at least one run off of it that can be opened by 12/26, otherwise, the mountain got in over their head and shouldn't have built it.

If you exclude the ski bowl, only 5 trails on Gore's trail map do not have snowmaking. Wood Out, Woodchuck, Dell, Mica, and Upper Darby. That is 93% snowmaking. Woodchuck, Dell and Mica are essentially irrelevant trails on the map. Upper Darby is far too narrow to have snowmaking on. The ski bowl COULD be open my your mandated date of 12/26, but to have all of the connecting trails via Burnt Ridge also open is simply not feasible to do the vastness of Gore's map. The could make snow on Peaceful Valley and have that open by 12/26, but what good would one lift and trail serve. You are also forgetting about snowmaking capabilities, water and electricity usage limits, staff and weather limits.

There is a fable about a frog and a scorpion.     Google it if you don't know it.     I often think of it when I encounter employees, acquaintances and the ex-wife when I "hope" they will change only to find they are what they are.    


Sno....you are a good guy, well informed and intended, this I'm sure.     All others......please accept him as a  scorpion.    Just stop trying and arguing with him.    

I read the frog and the scorpion on wiki. It made me sad.