Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

I'm not sure the chip fab plant will have much of an impact on Gore or North Creek.  It certainly can't hurt though.  As for gas prices, another view is that increasing energy costs will put Gore at a competitive advantage due to its closer proximity and easier access.

I have to say I was relieved when I saw that pass prices increased only by roughly 3%, in line with inflation, after two years of holding prices steady.  I'm also curious about skier visits.  WF announced some mid-season figures earlier  - I forget the details but they were up.  I would expect Gore's results to be up by a similar percentage.

adkskier wrote

The North Creek business environment is one of survival of the fittest right now. Several businesses operate only a few days per week (even during peak ski season) and others have failed or cut back. Last week Laura's closed the dining room. Food remains available at the bar. Common Roots is history and the space is available for rent. The North Creek Deli and Market has been closed for almost a year so far. North Creek currently has 4 vacant business locations. Some business owners did "OK", but no one is getting rich.
All this said, without skiing at Gore the Town of Johnsburg would be a ghost town.

Man that is pretty grim. I defer to your intimate local knowledge, but refuse to have my optimism about the future crushed.

There are still too many Gore skiers who head towards Exit 23 in Warrensburg at the end of the day and have no idea that North Creek is actually a town beyond Stewarts, Basil & Wicks/Kelly-O's/Casey's, and Cunninghams. I was one of those people for many, many years. Day trippers I've dragged to Laura's, barVino, etc. at the end of the day are always amazed at what the town has to offer. Even if you head north on 28N, you still can't see anything past the bank when you're at the stop sign on Main Street that might make you want to turn left and explore, so the steady pool of customers is limited. The businesses are not ON an access road to the slopes like they are at Killington or Stowe, or in a place everyone already knows about, like Lake Placid. When a new business in North Creek dilutes the limited pool by chasing the same customers (like when The Barking Spider opened a few doors down from Laura's), the competition hurts them all (at least Basil & Wicks/Kelly-O's/Casey's has a visible location). It's worse when things slow down after the height of ski season.

Gore needs to do much more to increase awareness. A lot more (Emily, I hope you read this forum).

I think the Front Street Development is DOA (few will shed a tear). The price of admission is just too damn high, and the people who do have that kind of money have too many other more attractive choices. And even if Front Street gets off the ground, what's envisioned is an insular community that will increase lift lines, but won't benefit North Creek.

Spongeworthy wrote

I t think the Front Street Development is DOA (few will shed a tear). The price of admission is just too damn high, and the people who do have that kind of money have too many other more attractive choices. And even if Front Street gets off the ground, what's envisioned is an insular community that will increase lift lines, but won't benefit North Creek.

Makes you wonder how they think they're going to be successful at Big Tupper.

Amen brother. I never knew about the new businesses downtown till I read about them on the forums and I live in the area, x18, and was at Gore 35+ days a year. Why? THEY DON"T ADVERTISE!!! Their bad, not ours. Surely something can be done to educate the public.

I too believe Front Street is DOA, stick a fork in them, just didn't wanna say so on here cuz people get their long johns in a bunch when one says that. I know this cuz I said years ago, before the recession, the Bowl Village would never friggin happen, pie in the sky and everybody was mad at me for saying it then, unlike now, when everybody just doesn't like me! Hehehe.

I sympathize with the NC businesses but I don't feel bad for them. They do not do enough to help themselves. A local newspaper editor agreed with me on that very fact so I'm not solo there. Most people do not know they're even down there. That is not the public's fault, it's the businesses responsiblity to educate consumers.

We've all offered various ideas on here and SkiAdk, have any of them been tried ? Even the shuttle is a bust.Why? For the most part, nobody will take time out of their ski day to go visit shops downtown. Who's gonna drive way up there, spend $70 for a ticket, then take a couple hours out to go shop/dine on a regular basis?

Snowballs wrote

just didn't wanna say so on here cuz people get their long johns in a bunch when one says that.

Dude, you feelin' alright?

Actually, I think general awareness and patronage of downtown North Creek has improved (slightly) over the past couple of years.  As you know there's been a decades long cycle of hopefulness and bust tied to developments that never happened.  Downtown NC was killed the day they decided to build the 28 bypass.  Bringing the Ski Bowl and BR to fruition are probably the most significant developments to affect NC since that time (since the bypass was built), so I'd say the future is the brightest (or maybe least dim?) that it's been in decades.

Feeling fine. Don't know if you were around when we had this debate a few years back.

Pssst......The Ski Bowl Village is DOA. You sure you're feeling alright? NC's future is bright? Oooookkkkk....

What about Casey's ? Are they still open ? They're right on the main road. Everybody drives by it and knows it there. Completely unaffected by the by-pass. Casey's has by far the nicest building in town of any restaurant, by far. YET Casey's has a hard time staying open!

Some future.

Snowballs wrote

What about Casey's ? Are they still open ?

It's now Basil & Wicks

Question for adkskier or anyone - if the Front Street project never happens, what is the down side for North Creek?  I'm not asking for a comparison between a huge booming "success," as envisioned/presented by the developer vs something less. My question is, if it doesn't get built at this point, is the town any worse off than if it was never proposed? It's a sincere question.

I can definitely see the downside if the project is half built - the town could get stuck with cost of maintaining an infrastructure, without the accompanying tax base.  This is also a huge concern at Big Tupper.

In a way, I see Gore's lack of slopeside lodging, to be somewhat similar to the bypass.  Both make the town a "nicer" place to be. But there is a cost to the local economy.

Just to clarify, my optimism about North Creek's future has nothing to do with Front Street. I agree with Adkskier - Gore is crucial to the future of the area.  My optimism is based on Gore's proximity to points south, and that eventually, snowmaking will catch up to terrain. I also think that a six-month rafting season, and proximity to wilderness are other attractions.

Pending the answer to my first question - I personally don't care if the real estate project happens or not. I'm not a big fan of slopeside accommodations, for a lot of reasons. I realize I may be in the minority on this one.

Adk Jeff wrote

I'm also curious about skier visits.  WF announced some mid-season figures earlier  - I forget the details but they were up.  I would expect Gore's results to be up by a similar percentage.

Just got an ORDA press release that included this:

"Buoyed by an on-time start to the skiing and riding season, which began on Nov. 26, and more than 247-inches of natural snowfall, Whiteface counted 209,214 skier days, an increase of 10.82% compared to last season.  Revenue also increased at the mountain by 16.31%.

Gore also had more skier days this winter than last winter as 189,395 skiers and riders took to the North Creek resort slopes.  Those skiers and riders enjoyed 134 days on the mountain’s 96 trails and 150-inches of natural snowfall."


EDIT: I spoke to Jon. His number does not include groups and tours. Sorry for the confusion.

In the same economic climate, what explains the increase at WF and the drop at Gore?  Hmmmmm.

gebbyfish wrote

In the same economic climate, what explains the increase at WF and the drop at Gore?  Hmmmmm.

I'm wondering if it's a mistake, based on this phrase:

"Gore also had more skier days this winter than last winter...."

Obviously it's also possible my numbers are confused. But I thought I did them pretty carefully.

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If the Front st project never happens then what's the point of the ski bowl? It was there years ago and didn't survive. How will it this time? It was stated that it was rarely open this year. How come?

Point of Ski Bowl was to bring the mtn closer to the Village and hopefully spur more economic activity.  Completely agree that by-passes killed local economies.  Biggest example being Northway.

State approval for Frontstreet included conditions that developer was financially responsibly for infrastructure costs.  The community is not gonna be impacted if the development does not go forward.  If he fails mayB someone else would come forward and take advantage of being located adjacent to Gore.  The site is classified for higher density development and does not have significant building constraints.  Good soils, good slopes.....   ORDA built a new lodge and lift.  I've heard from locals they enjoyed booting up there and not dealing w/ parking issues at base of Gore.  

Linking Gore into North Creek is the goal.  I believe in North Creek, it's way cooler than Rutland.  

There is a lot of stuff in this thread.

IMO  North Creek does not work with developers. Since 1986 there has been only one development completed (The Summit). How does this happen? There have been other projects that have been started but only one is complete. This continues with Front Street. I do not know why. Maybe the attitudes of the locals that wanted a bypass is still driving NC to demand more from the developers until the developers just give up.

The lack of beds and modern accomodations is one of the limiting factors to skier visits, NC visits, and tax revenue for NC.  We all acknowledge that Gore is not crowded and crow that we hope it stays this way. The problem is that hardcore skiers (like those on this board) with season passes are probably worth less per visit than the casual 1-3 weekend a year skier. Slopeside beds tell casual skiers that this is a resort. Gore and North Creek need more of this type of skier. Gore is grossly underutilized.If Front Street property is not developed by somebody Gore will remain what it is - a huge ski area with around 200,000 visits/year. Half the mountain will be closed midweek, North Creek business will continue having problems staying open, and the Town will continue to money problems because the tax base never expands.

However if Gore ever starts drawing 250-300k per year, M Pratt will have some juice with ORDA and might be able to get more done on the mountain with things like snowmaking, marketing and bathrooms. Maybe more terrain is opened in the early season.  Maybe more of the mountain will be open midweek. Maybe more NC gets more traffic. Maybe the town gets more tax revenue to crawl out of the deep financial hole it lives in.

"And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt. " Wayne Cambell

ScottyJack wrote

  I've heard from locals they enjoyed booting up there and not dealing w/ parking issues at base of Gore.  

 This doesn't do a whole lot for North Creek economically. How many here know of someone that went to the area because of the ski bowl? Or went from the mountain to the ski bowl and then ultilized the shuttle to the village?

I think the Ski Bowl was open 26 days this year. I'm trying to confirm the number, but I think it's close. It opened the last week in January and was open weekends through March and most of President's Week. The interconnect itself (Pipeline) was open less and Burnt Ridge was open more.

I'm not sure how to answer the question about the point of the Ski Bowl. To me it's like any other terrain at Gore, Whiteface or Belleayre. There's some nice skiing down there. Some steep stuff and some nice trees and cliffs. Next year the pod should be more useful when 46er has snowmaking to cover that headwall. And there were some cold spring days when it was the only terrain that softened.

I understand the POV that says that money spent on snowmaking, would have benefited North Creek more - extending the season, especially on the front end. That's hard to argue with.

If you don't think the state should be in the ski business, that's a whole 'nother discussion.  I guess like any government spending, if it benefits you, you're more likely to accept it.

And if you think that politicians pushed for a construction project, based on numbers that are a little "rosy" - well it wouldn't be the first time that happened.

Snowballs wrote

NC's future is bright? Oooookkkkk....

Just to be clear, I didn't exactly say NC's future is "bright," more that it's "less dim" than it's been in quite a while.  On a scale of 1 to 10, perhaps things have improved from a 2 to a 3.  The fact that the ski bowl project happened certainly doesn't push the downtown outlook to a 10, but it's got to at least nudge things in the right direction.  For now I'll reserve comment on whether the ski bowl project was "worth it" or whether it was implemented well or not so well.

One other clarification, by "ski bowl project" I specifically mean the ski trails and lift.  Not the Front Street Development project.

Harvey44 wrote

Gore also had more skier days this winter than last winter as 189,395 skiers and riders took to the North Creek resort slopes.  Those skiers and riders enjoyed 134 days on the mountain’s 96 trails and 150-inches of natural snowfall."

EDIT: I spoke to Jon. His number does not include groups and tours. Sorry for the confusion.

Right, I saw that press release too and the (somewhat confusing) info in there about groups that weren't being counted.  Makes me think that these numbers are apples to oranges.  I've got to beleive the "all-in" count for Gore will reflect an increase over last year, which I beleive was something north of 200K.  I'll have to look for that figure, or maybe you've got it handy Harv or anyone else?