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Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

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Snowballs

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Banned User

Maybe it's alot of other things. Maybe Gore skiers are just so used to heading home after skiing that it's like old dog, new tricks syndrome. Casey's business experience would certainly be an example. Most Gore skiers go past Casey's(basil's) and it can barely stay open. Even money they'll close for the summer?

Of all the times I've been to Gore since '01, we've only stopped twice to eat after skiing and those two times we were going tubing afterward at the Bowl. I rarely even buy gas there, it's cheaper at home. It's Stewart's for a coffee and hot chocolate, maybe some snacks and then home for dinner. We don't feel like going to a restuarant after skiing, home's better, people are tired and we got ski clothes on. Many people probably feel this way. Most of the time I'm by myself, so I head home to be with the family.

Gore's lack of exposure or reknown no doubt hinders NC. The proximity to famed VT doesn't help either. Gore just doesn't have the suave rep VT of Face does.

They got alot to overcome. Overall the largest factor to the economic decline - the blue line, forever wild is squeezing the economy out of the park. Perhaps that's just how it will be. Many people (most?) who live up there don't want alot of people there anywho.

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

I agree with X's comment that this thread is all over the map. It should probably be separated out again (it was originally part of the "Gore SHOULD do the right thing" thread) but that stuff just gives me a brain freeze.

IMO Basil and Wicks should be and interesting case study in customer service. We ALWAYS want to go out to eat on Saturday night after skiing, but have had a hard time finding a place to eat that we think is ok for a four-year-old. (Ski Bowl Cafe is great for kids but it closes at 5.)

Basil's is VERY welcoming. The come right up to you immediately, and get your order in the kitchen - that's key with the short attention spans that kids have. The booths are great for family eating. EVERY time we are in town Zelda now pushes for B&W. We've eaten there 5 times this season and hadn't been to Casey's since Neve was born. I'm rootin for them.

Snowballs wrote

Overall the largest factor to the economic decline - the blue line, forever wild is squeezing the economy out of the park. Perhaps that's just how it will be. Many people (most?) who live up there don't want alot of people there anywho.

This is a hot button I'm sure. One thing about tourism is it ongoing. Logging, mining, paper ... are finite and eventually run out. I think how you feel about visitors has everything to do with your "business model."

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

x10003q

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by Snowballs

Snowballs wrote

Maybe it's alot of other things. Maybe Gore skiers are just so used to heading home after skiing that it's like old dog, new tricks syndrome. Casey's business experience would certainly be an example. Most Gore skiers go past Casey's(basil's) and it can barely stay open. Even money they'll close for the summer?

Of all the times I've been to Gore since '01, we've only stopped twice to eat after skiing and those two times we were going tubing afterward at the Bowl. I rarely even buy gas there, it's cheaper at home. It's Stewart's for a coffee and hot chocolate, maybe some snacks and then home for dinner. We don't feel like going to a restuarant after skiing, home's better, people are tired and we got ski clothes on. Many people probably feel this way. Most of the time I'm by myself, so I head home to be with the family.

Gore's lack of exposure or reknown no doubt hinders NC. The proximity to famed VT doesn't help either. Gore just doesn't have the suave rep VT of Face does.

They got alot to overcome. Overall the largest factor to the economic decline - the blue line, forever wild is squeezing the economy out of the park. Perhaps that's just how it will be. Many people (most?) who live up there don't want alot of people there anywho.

This post by Snowballs supports some of my comments but from a different point of view. Snowballs is a Gore day tripper. I have said many times that Gore is a day area for the Albany-Glens Falls corridor. I know when I day trip to the Catskills I do not stop for local meals; I just want to get home. Maybe if I was 30 minutes instead of 1.5hrs away I would stop. But as Snowballs mentions there are other factors. The last paragraph of his post is a great group of points. Tourism must be accepted as there are really no other ways to employ people in the park today.

Until the North Creek area gets more accomodations and Gore figures out how to market to areas where skiers will stay for more than a day, the whole area will continue on its current path.

Snowballs

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Banned User

Thanks X. Too many other attractive options abound.

Consider the ADK Great Camps from days of yore. Fantastic, wonderful, very popular/vogue with the wealthy and close to Metro. Yet writers I've read are always surprised at their sudden demise, so to speak.

I would speculate the advent of air travel and the spreading rail systems made many other, "new" areas available and en vogue to the wealthy traveler. No longer was it "cool" to travel to the ADKs when new and exotic places were with in reach. People wanted to fly to California, Europe or ride Flagler's RR to sunny, warm Florida. These places are viable for longer periods during the year vs. the ADK's short summer.

Across the ADKs, we see numerous Mom & Pop places that used to house tourists but now their rows of cabins, etc. sit long unused. It used to be these people had guests. Now travelers eye different areas and accomodations.

Could it be that tourism in the ADKs is more athletic activity based and most people would rather opt for a less strenous trip? A trip to the beach or theme parks?

I'm all for the forever wild clause. We may just have to accept that means little economic activity. Someday, it may be a ghost town inside the blue line. The ADK park is just too large for commuting to civilization for work.

adkskier

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by Harvey

Addressing Harv's questions: the town of Johnsburg ( or what so many just call North Creek) has no exposure if FS fails. The roads and infrastructure are all private. The permits call for "build it or bond it". The project has cost the town almost nothing as they pass on all legal and engineering bills to the developer. What the stand to lose is a bi bump to the tax base. What we, as skiers, stand to lose is momentum and economic support for local restaurants, amenities and services. In other words, a successful second home community brings more $$ to support businesses and things to do après ski. Without this economic bump, North Creek goes back to being a sleepy place. This is very different from the ACR project in Tupperware which has received a PILOT ( payment in lieu of taxes) and required the locality to upgrade their wastewater treatment, but to be fair I'm not sure if Foxman is paying for some of the upgrade.

Harvey44 wrote

Question for adkskier or anyone - if the Front Street project never happens, what is the down side for North Creek? I'm not asking for a comparison between a huge booming "success," as envisioned/presented by the developer vs something less. My question is, if it doesn't get built at this point, is the town any worse off than if it was never proposed? It's a sincere question.

I can definitely see the downside if the project is half built - the town could get stuck with cost of maintaining an infrastructure, without the accompanying tax base. This is also a huge concern at Big Tupper.

In a way, I see Gore's lack of slopeside lodging, to be somewhat similar to the bypass. Both make the town a "nicer" place to be. But there is a cost to the local economy.

Just to clarify, my optimism about North Creek's future has nothing to do with Front Street. I agree with Adkskier - Gore is crucial to the future of the area. My optimism is based on Gore's proximity to points south, and that eventually, snowmaking will catch up to terrain. I also think that a six-month rafting season, and proximity to wilderness are other attractions.

Pending the answer to my first question - I personally don't care if the real estate project happens or not. I'm not a big fan of slopeside accommodations, for a lot of reasons. I realize I may be in the minority on this one.

I Think, Therefore I Ski

adkskier

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by 70s Gore Kid

There is a sign right in front of you when you get to the intersection of Peaceful Valley Rd and 28 and turn right to go home.

70s Gore Kid wrote

I don't know what the signage is leading up to Gore at this point, but for downtown North Creek to succeed, it almost needs to slap Gore visitors in the face, lassoo them, or yell "free beer!" to let them know it exists.

Harv- I'd like to see more about Gore's numbers for the season. Why pull out groups and tours? A skier visit is a skier visit. Also interesting (and somewhat typical) that the press release report WFs current numbers and last Year's numbers while the Gore portion just addresses this Year's numbers with a weak comment that traffic was up. I'd like to see real, objective, reporting from Gore.

I Think, Therefore I Ski

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

In reply to this post by adkskier

adkskier - thank you for that very clear explanation and detail on Front Street and Johnsburg. I appreciate it.

On the Gore skier visit numbers from Jon Lundin - he explained that single ticket sales are tabulated by a machine and easy to pull. The group stuff takes some figuring.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

YUKON CORNELIUS

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by Snowballs

This kind of thing isn't going to speed the process along:

http://poststar.com/news/local/article_eaf4a6e8-6fa8-11e0-a462-001cc4c03286.html

"This is pure snow! Do you have any idea what the street value of this mountain is?"

ScottyJack

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by adkskier

ACR has not recieved a PILOT to date. They will have to submit an application for funding to the Franklin Ctny IDA. They are proposing to Bond for infrastructure. The bonding would be structure to ensure no risk to public.

I ride with Crazy Horse!

ScottyJack

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by Harvey

Harvey44 wrote

adkskier - thank you for that very clear explanation and detail on Front Street and Johnsburg. I appreciate it.

Hey man what was not clear about my explanation???

I ride with Crazy Horse!

x10003q

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

In reply to this post by YUKON CORNELIUS

DARKSIDED wrote

This kind of thing isn't going to speed the process along:

http://poststar.com/news/local/article_eaf4a6e8-6fa8-11e0-a462-001cc4c03286.html

What a joke.

This goes to my point about the town being responsible for the lack of finished developments. NC/Johnsburg is in dire need of ratables yet they cannot even produce a quorum for a meeting. It is not just permits that expire but also loan apps/requiements. Investors see better projects in which to make money and there goes Front Street's financing.

I wonder if the town's inaction had anything to do with the permits expiring.

adkskier

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

I don't see any intentional slowdown. Just sloppy and unprofessional behavior from a volunteer board charged with significant responsibility! Nothing new. It has run this way for years.

x10003q wrote

DARKSIDED wrote

This kind of thing isn't going to speed the process along:

http://poststar.com/news/local/article_eaf4a6e8-6fa8-11e0-a462-001cc4c03286.html

What a joke.

This goes to my point about the town being responsible for the lack of finished developments. NC/Johnsburg is in dire need of ratables yet they cannot even produce a quorum for a meeting. It is not just permits that expire but also loan apps/requiements. Investors see better projects in which to make money and there goes Front Street's financing.

I wonder if the town's inaction had anything to do with the permits expiring.

I Think, Therefore I Ski

x10003q

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

adkskier wrote

I don't see any intentional slowdown. Just sloppy and unprofessional behavior from a volunteer board charged with significant responsibility! Nothing new. It has run this way for years.

Intentionally unintentional ? This was the second time. If you are on the board you know the responsiblity. Maybe somebody wants to show Front Street who's the boss. It just might be less obvious in North Creek. Just because it has gone on for years doen's mean that there is something else going on. A couple words from somebody and another month ticks by......

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

In reply to this post by ScottyJack

ScottyJack wrote

Hey man what was not clear about my explanation???

Scotty I missed it - (seriously it's HARD to keep up with what is posted!) I wasn't implying this was unclear:

ScottyJack wrote

State approval for Frontstreet included conditions that developer was financially responsibly for infrastructure costs. The community is not gonna be impacted if the development does not go forward. If he fails mayB someone else would come forward and take advantage of being located adjacent to Gore. The site is classified for higher density development and does not have significant building constraints. Good soils, good slopes..... ORDA built a new lodge and lift.

ScottyJack wrote

Point of Ski Bowl was to bring the mtn closer to the Village and hopefully spur more economic activity.

It is closer. If it actually went all the way to main street the impact would be huge. But I still think it will help.

ScottyJack wrote

I believe in North Creek....

Me too.

Would like to know what really happened with the meeting.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

In reply to this post by Adk Jeff

Adk Jeff wrote

I've got to beleive the "all-in" count for Gore will reflect an increase over last year, which I beleive was something north of 200K. I'll have to look for that figure, or maybe you've got it handy Harv or anyone else?

Jeff - what I have is from ORDA annual reports:

http://www.nyskiblog.com/2010/05/gore-and-whiteface-skier-visits.html

Last year's number was 218,000.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

Looks like Adirondack Almanack re-evaluated it's take on the quality of the season that ORDA had..

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2011/04/orda-venues-enjoy-strong-winter-season.html

While much of the information came from the press release we got the other day, the tone of the article seems positive.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Denis.N

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

I'm confused by Gore's numbers: "Gore also had more skier days this winter than last winter as 189,395 skiers and riders took to the North Creek resort slope". Last season it was 218166.. What does press release say?

Are they still counting pass-holders as 15 ski days? I think they could get actual number from those ticket scanners. Anyway I was not counted, as I skied at Gore around 40 days with Whiteface pass - ticket checking person would usually wave me thru, since scanner does not recognize WF pass.

I have a short story to tell about Ski Bowl Tubing card experiment. I'll leave that for another thread.

Benny Profane

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by gebbyfish

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/nyregion/audits-find-widespread-waste-in-albany-spending.html

"Still, no example is more emblematic of the state’s administrative problems, Mr. Glaser said, than a continuing effort by the State Office of Children and Family Services to develop a new computer system for tracking children in foster care. The program was begun in 1993, Mr. Glaser said, when Mr. Cuomo’s father, Mario M. Cuomo, was governor.

The system has yet to be completed. The total price tag so far? It is $351 million."

Your tax dollars hard at work. Better hope that ORDA doesn't get the microscope treatment.

funny like a clown

ausable skier

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

This post was updated on .

Benny

been following your posts on a number of topics

chill out dude - you may be the most pestimistic person that actually skis. usually folks like you sit inside your crappy little NYC metro area existence and don't actually venture outside except maybe to ski with all the other lemmings at Killington. I now do recall you are a K-mart fan so that does all tie together.

since you are a K-mart guy why are you expending your energy on NYS ski areas and their economic impact?

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

Harvey

Re: Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Administrator

Ted Blazer quoted numbers for ORDA Skier Visits yesterday at the BOD meeting in Lake Placid.

Whiteface was up by 22,000 and Gore was up by 7,000 over 2009/2010.

I will update the link with actuals — visits and revenue — when the ORDA Annual Report is issued in July.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

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