Profitability and Economic Impacts of NY state-run ski areas

Here's a link to an economic impact study on ORDA from 2008.  It shows that WhiteFace revenue was about 2.3 million more than Gore.  See p. 17. http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/eis2008.pdf

Thanks for that.

But how do we get the more recent numbers?

BTW, I'm not trying to bust any chops with this, I just always wondered.

FWIW, Gore employees always told me Gore makes more money and has more skier visits than Face. Awhile back on here, someone posted info from an Orda budget or some such thing and it said Gore made more money than Face.

Most of what follows is speculation.

There are two ways to measure how much money a state-run ski area makes or loses.

One way would be to take the amount spent on operation at the mountain, and subtract out the revenue taken in.

Another way is to measure the economic impact of the mountain on the region — how much commerce is created in the region (and how much tax revenue comes from it).

Regarding the first method, from what I know it's much harder to get revenue and cost data from Belleayre. Because it's run by the DEC the numbers, both revenue and operating expenses, are part of the state's "general fund."

But for Gore and Whiteface, run by ORDA, those numbers are reported.  I think if you look into the link provided by gebbyfish or into this:

www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/2010_2011_Budget_to_board.pdf

You'll be able to piece together the first number — revenue minus overhead — for each ORDA hill.

And here is a summary of skier visits and actual revenue numbers for the last five years:

http://www.nyskiblog.com/2010/05/gore-and-whiteface-skier-visits.html

While it's conceivable to imagine Gore coming out ahead in the first calculation, it seems logical to me that Whiteface would have more total economic impact on the region. More day trippers and single day (full price) tickets sold at Gore, and more destination skiers at Whiteface, spending money taking advantage of Lake Placid 's lodging and nightlife.

Like I said - mostly speculation.

Harvey44 wrote

While it's conceivable to imagine Gore coming out ahead in the first calculation, it seems logical to me that Whiteface would have more total economic impact on the region. More day trippers and single day (full price) tickets sold at Gore, and more destination skiers at Whiteface, spending money taking advantage of Lake Placid 's lodging and nightlife.

Like I said - mostly speculation.

You could take the opposite point of view about the importance of WF vs Gore. If both ski areas were to close for good this summer, which region would suffer more? I would say the Gore region. Lake Placid has a lot more going on in terms of recreation and entertainment vs North Creek. I think LP has more summer visitors than winter visitors. I doubt the same can be said for North Creek.

I looked at those ORDA numbers not quite a year ago, but my recollection is that it is difficult to separate out the operating expenses by venue, i.e. Gore vs.Whiteface.  There are visitor counts and revenue by venue, but without the expenses broken out by venue it's difficult to come up with an operating profit or loss figure for each ORDA venue.  As Harv points out, since Belleayre is part of DEC rather than ORDA, there is no public reporting available for it.  In any case, there's plenty of good information in the ORDA reports, but not the data that would be needed to come up with Gore's or WF's profit.  That's probably in part by design and in part due to the difficulty in allocating certain expenses among the ORDA venues.  And as Harv also points out, the broader perspective is the economic impact of each on the entire region.  

x10003q wrote

You could take the opposite point of view about the importance of WF vs Gore. If both ski areas were to close for good this summer, which region would suffer more? I would say the Gore region. Lake Placid has a lot more going on in terms of recreation and entertainment vs North Creek. I think LP has more summer visitors than winter visitors. I doubt the same can be said for North Creek.

Very good points X. You don't see most of the businesses in Placid going through the open/closed down cycles that plague NC.

Don't forget that Lake Placid has the Ironman triathlon in July and attracts many cyclists/triathletes as a result.  I haven't done the Ironman yet, but every time I come back from the Tupper half-Iron triathlon and go through Lake Placid, I see many runners and cyclists in racing singlets tooling around town.  I think that many of those people are not just there for the day, but their attraction has nothing to do with Whiteface, but it is at least another revenue source that Lake Placid has that North Creek doesn't; so the discussion that the region would suffer more if Gore closed is probably valid for that and other tourism reasons.

x10003q wrote

If both ski areas were to close for good this summer, which region would suffer more? I would say the Gore region. Lake Placid has a lot more going on in terms of recreation and entertainment vs North Creek.

Bulk of money is made during holidays and busy weekends. North Creek would suffer for sure, but it's scream would not be heard as it is so small. I really doubt families would come to L.P. to see bobsled / luge or to wait 20 minuted for toboggan run - they come because of Whiteface. Winter would be dead for L.P.

I sure hope nothing like this would happen.

What impact did the ski bowl have on the village of North Creek this winter? Was it bustling  as was hyped?

I would speculate that the shuttle and the businesses themselves were more responsible for any increase traffic downtown than the Ski Bowl was. The Bowl was barely even open much.

Places like this forum likely also help spread the downtown word. Personally, I think Harv has done a great job here.

Supervisor for the Town of Johnsburg said 14 new businesses opened after the Ski Bowl Village project and expansion was approved.  The real impacts to North Creek will come once the resort/residential takes off, which I think will happen over the next five years w/ acceleration when Global Foundries starts cranking in Malta.

Re: ORDA venues, the ski jump, bob run operated at huge losses which are covered by WF revenue but you really can't shut them down cause to a certain extent they bring in revenue to the regional economy.  However, do we really need the bob run operation in Oct???

ScottyJack wrote

Supervisor for the Town of Johnsburg said 14 new businesses opened after the Ski Bowl Village project and expansion was approved.  The real impacts to North Creek will come once the resort/residential takes off, which I think will happen over the next five years w/ acceleration when Global Foundries starts cranking in Malta.

5yrs could be a long time for these new businesses

Well, as an Olympic training center, does Orda get any money from the National Olympic committee ?

Five weeks could be a long time for any start up business, but that's capitalism right..

Alot of people are disappointed w/ the phasing delays for Frontstreet but the pieces are in place.  State did it’s job for sure. Now it’s up to the developer to make it happen.  If he’s smart and aware he’ll reach out to Global Foundries and market his project before K-Mart does.  I’m rooting for North Creek.  It’s way cooler than Rutland!    

My (completely unscientific) observation was that downtown North Creek had a reasonable season this winter.  IMO it has more to do with the consistent cold, a better economy (vs last year), and a modest rise in Gore skier visits.

I know for a fact that Gear Source (local ski shop) did significantly better than last year. This may be related to their new, more visible location. I know Jeff was using the Bowl to demo skis.

I'd really like to know how other businesses did. I'd also like to know how strong the correlation is between skier visits at ORDA ski hills and business in Lake Placid and North Creek.

Snowballs wrote

 The Bowl was barely even open much.

Why?

The Ski Bowl contributed zip to the local economy. The shuttle bus (provided by local businesses) may have helped a little, but it's not likely that its contribution covered its costs. As to the quote from the town supervisor; he uses funny math....gets confused counting on his fingers and he's never seen out after dark supporting local businesses. Businesses open and businesses close. The North Creek business environment is one of survival of the fittest right now. Several businesses operate only a few days per week (even during peak ski season) and others have failed or cut back. Last week Laura's closed the dining room. Food remains available at the bar. Common Roots is history and the space is available for rent. The North Creek Deli and Market has been closed for almost a year so far. North Creek currently has 4 vacant business locations. Some business owners did "OK", but no one is getting rich.
All this said, without skiing at Gore the Town of Johnsburg would be a ghost town.

That was my impression, but ADKskier would know better than me.

ScottyJack hit on a developement that might help spur the SB Village project along, Global Foundies in Malta. Hopefully Front Street and it's money man will still be viable.

Like many of you, I think high gas costs are here to stay. Governments - Fed, State and local will only get worse financially. The dollar looks to lose big ground, so my guess is North Creek will continue struggle. Depressing.

If I was a big money man, I would think very long and hard before sinking mega bucks into a NC developement or any ADK ski area right now.

In that note, wonder if ORDA will be raising rates this year? Safe bet they do. Maybe this good season will help offset their raising costs.

Snowballs wrote

Like many of you, I think high gas costs are here to stay.

Agreed. With capacity close to maxed, gas prices will continue reflect (and at the same time inhibit) economic activity.  Gas prices have been "low" because economic growth has been stagnant. If the world economy continues to recover, and unemployment drops, gas prices will rise. Personally I'd rather have a growing economy and rising gas prices, vs the alternative.

Snowballs wrote

In that note, wonder if ORDA will be raising rates this year? Safe bet they do. Maybe this good season will help offset their raising costs.

This has already happened. At least on the full pass - it's gone from $699 to $720.  The season was good for skiers, but I am very curious about final skier visit and revenue numbers.  A recent guess of mine (skier visits) was shot down by Mike as being much too high. Numbers were up but not as much as I expected.