Rail-trail decision for Lake Placid scenic RR

Payment in Lieu of Taxes (PILOT) Agreements, NYC
Manufacturing, industrial, and not-for-profit companies may receive property tax incentives through agreements with government agencies.  The two agencies that issue these agreements are NYC Industrial Development Agency (IDA) and NYC Economic Development Corporation (EDC). Through these agreements, properties are exempt from property taxes and instead make a Payment in Lieu of Taxes (PILOT).
Link

Some Types of Property Tax Exemptions in NYS
Non-Profits ($111.9 billion)
Exemptions located in the New York State Constitution and Real Property Tax Law
Industrial/Commercial
Industrial Development Agencies (IDAs)($31.8 billion)
Public Authority Property ($19.6 billion)
Other
Public or Subsidized Housing ($65.3 billion)
Agricultural and Forest Property ($7.1 billion)

Link 2, page 7

Notice there is no exemption for real estate development unless it is public or subsidized housing.

If endo is correct that does make a difference particularly if this only get half developed.  I doubt this is going to many or even any kids to the school district so that makes it ok there but the town and county do suffer.  Probably this should have to go to a local vote to approve that arrangement.

But after I wrote this X posted the details that would seem to support my point that this will add to the local tax base.

I'm still rooting for this to succeed.

Coach,  In looking more closely I realized that the actual Great Camp Lot owners/buyers do not get the benefit of the PILOT, it is for the bulk of the residential properties in the other part of the project. So the 40 or so Great Camps will pay(supposedly) their full shot of taxes to the proper entities.  X does have a good link, but the problem is that each IDA has it's own set of rules and regs, which are pretty loosey goosey to say the least.

I've put this out before but according to the last numbers put forth by the developers here is what they propose.  In the first phase they will borrow about $36 M and get a PILOT. Their own figures show(at the current tax rates) that they will need over $914000. / yr just to make the payment on the bond principal. At the current tax rate that means they need to have sold, and have assessed about $47M worth of property. And that only means the bond gets paid, the taxing entities will only see any money coming to them if the sell and have assessed property over $47M.  

The really big problem is that in this case, as opposed to most PILOT programs, this one has NO guarantee of any payment at all going to the local taxing entities. They only get whatever is left over once the principal on the bond is paid. And given their delusional estimated pricing, the taxing entities will never see a dime, yet they will be providing services. Thus the locals pick up the shortfall.  No Good!

As adkJeff said, this has been well documented on many other sites.

Accordng to x's post pilot can't be used for housing developments unless they are for public or subsidized housing.  This won't be either of those so thus I'm not so sure endo is correct about the property tax deal.

It's a boon doggel for the train guys. They lose money in the busiest area of the adks, quite a bit I might add. Now they are going to get there rails rebuild on 3 times the length. All of them are laughing at the while system. They get to play with they're trains on a much larger track and get a whole bunch of money to do so. In 20 years we will be having this same conversation again. This is not a compromise it is a fleecing of the tax payer.

Snowballs wrote

I:)skiing has good point about NC missing the boat on this. These bike trails have been bringing good tourist revenue to many areas. I can see it being very popular in Placid. Northern Vermont is said to boom from their bike tourists.

Tourists trains are " nice, romantic " but serious money losers for the most part. Is the one to NC still even running ?

My guess is that if it has not yet gone by the wayside (get it ...) that as soon as the gravel starts to move it will. What IP really wants is the rare earths in the tailings of the old titanium mine. It was pretty obvious the whole thing was a shame from the start - sucker'm in with the train service than hold it over their head to get the freight service approved. If NC had said they wanted to convert that rail to trail, IP would have said "no scenic train service for you" and what is a bit of summer business goes down the shitter and main street continues it's cycle of deterioration. The corridor from NC to Tahawus has nothing for the average recreational biker and if you are not a hiker, there is nothing to see other than the old blast furnace there. It's not like going from LP to Tupper - at least there is a Stewarts at the end of your journey.

What was not worth the processing fees before is now worth quite a bit, particularly since it's just sitting on the ground in rocks that have already been mined and crushed. However - even the whole rare earths thing is not panning out like expected as they are finding that all those abandoned mines throughout the Western states are "gold" mines of rare earths just sitting on the surface in all those tailings. IP is not in the rush they were in 4 years ago when it looked like China had a corner on the market. Remember the statements - they were going to be hauling gravel within 1 year of getting the rail right of way - no rush now.

I don't get the economics of the tailings. But I disagree with the characterizations of NC Main Street as deteriorating.

Reading all of this crap makes me say...is it winter yet??!!

Harvey wrote

I don't get the economics of the tailings. But I disagree with the characterizations of NC Main Street as deteriorating.

NC is being held together by a very few shop owners. It seems to be holding it's own right now. But if they lost the train it would suffer a serious blow.

As far as the economics of the tailings. Titanium tailings usually contain elements like Neodymium which is essential for making strong magnets which are needed for miniature electric motors like the fan in your lap top or the motors that drive your Prius. Niobium is another rare earth usually found with Titanium, Niobium is used in making super conducting magnets used in MRI scanners and is also used in making super strength steel alloys like those needed for jet engines. Yttrium is another rare earth sometimes found with titanium, the magnetic properties are just being discovered and is used for making strong aluminum alloys. It's initial use was for making the red in CRT tubes but that need has gone away. These are all essential elements for our modern high tech economy. About 7 or 8 years ago Chine thought they had the market locked up and raised the prices several hundred % and that's when shortly there after there was renew interest in Tahawus as well as abandoned mines all across the US. Now we find that we have a pretty good supply that has already been mined and is just sitting on the surface in abandoned gold and silver mines as well as titanium mines and is waiting to be processed out of the crushed rock. Although the prices are still high, they have stabilized somewhat.  

I have heard from some merchants that the train is a good boost to the summer time economy in North Creek.

If there is a track into Tawahas and they are removing existing tailings (vs doing more mining) it could make sense to take it out, if NY gets a cut.  Is that an issue with the law/constitution? How did they make that happen? What's the deal with the 50 years?

I read the first paragraph and stopped. what you said was not subjective it was just wrong.

Coach Z wrote

I don't understand why anyone busts on this Tupper development.  The more rich second home owners we can get in the Daks the better for people that actually live here.  The more rich folk the better.

I kind of disagree with ya on this Coach. I have lived in a bunch of different mountain towns out west here and once the focus is on giant McMansions the cost of living in that area goes through the roof. Sure, it provides some construction jobs at first and a few people get rich on that and doing real estate but after that long time locals start to get the boot. The property taxes go up with the mean property prices no? Once the build out is done the greed might continue with sketchy land swaps or what is left is just service industry jobs turning the locals into basically servants for the wealthy. I have seen it, lived it, and honestly I'm over it. The second home thing has become ridiculous and imo it can't be sustainable. No one needs a 5000 square foot house in the Daks that they hang out at for a few weeks a year. Another thing that living in towns like Jackson has taught me is that the wealth gap in this country is ridiculously extreme. I don't like the values of a lot of these people (not all of them) and I sure as hell don't like putting on a fake smile to get a small cash tip from these people.

I'm just saying be careful before you commit to selling out the place you probably love. The grass isn't always that much greener.

Harvey wrote

I have heard from some merchants that the train is a good boost to the summer time economy in North Creek.

If there is a track into Tawahas and they are removing existing tailings (vs doing more mining) it could make sense to take it out, if NY gets a cut.  Is that an issue with the law/constitution? How did they make that happen? What's the deal with the 50 years?

I had not heard the 50 years thing but what I recall was that the rail corridor actually considered a military priority at one point and the state never had control over it. The mine is on private property as well. The only thing the state will get is some tax revenue. It is not in conflict with the state constitution. IP doesn't own the mine, the last I heard it is still National Lead property. Nothing wrong with pulling tailings out, hopefully it will clean up the site.

tjf1967 wrote

I read the first paragraph and stopped. what you said was not subjective it was just wrong.

Possibly - but I don't recall seeing the track being used much if at all this winter, did they run the ski train this past ski season?

I was not in the board room of IP when they put together the business plan for the train into NC nor was I part of the negotiations with NC. However, it doesn't take an MBA to figure out that the scenic train is not sustainable without freight and that freight has to be something worth hauling and gravel by itself isn't it. I connected the dots, if they don't connect for you the same way - so be it. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.

I was at that meeting Pee Tex, and the first words out of Ed Ellis' (CEO IP) were that there is NO money to be made in passenger service. Freight is needed to turn a profit. But alas, after 4+ years of trying they have had only 4 cars of tailings hauled out of the mine, and that was sent to Massachusetts to another rail line that is operated by IP, so no money made there.

The problem with the tailings and any other freight that IP would be hauling for that matter, is that IP only can operate on the Warren County/Corinth spur which ends in Saratoga. CSX owns the East/West lines through NY and they don't like to play nice with other rail companies without lots of $$ being paid to them for the use of their line. So, by the time the tailings are loaded on train cars at the mine, and then shipped to Saratoga, where they have to pay big $$ to use the line, and then the tailings have to be off loaded to trucks at some point which also costs $$. SO by the time the tailings get to their end destination, there isn't any profit left for IP, and will probably actually cost them $$.
In regards to the businesses in NC, there is definitely an uptick when the train arrives daily, but the number of passengers has diminished greatly since the first 2 years of service when there were hundreds of passengers arriving daily. Now if they get 20-30 that is about it. The job creation though has had the biggest effect, as there are a lot of locals working for IP, and if/when the contract expires next summer, and the train goes bye bye, the loss of jobs will be the most damaging to our local economy as most employees live here in the area. IP pays it's employees well and provides benefits and a good work environment, so replacing those jobs here, is almost impossible.

The ski train was a bust and IP opted out of them this past winter, but they did a few special runs for Valentines, St Pat's etc. There was an issue with the engines and the severe cold on every one of those special runs, resulting in passengers being stranded for anywhere from 1/2 hour to having to be bussed back to the station. If it wasn't for the Polar Express Christmas runs in Saratoga, it is my belief that IP would have pulled the plug already.

The snowmobile trail that used the rails before IP, brought far more people to town on a daily basis than the ski train, and it was a great ride!! A rail trail obviously would bring back snowmobile traffic and bikers/hikers would enjoy the beautiful scenery. My fear is the loss of jobs will be a trump card for the crooks who make up the Warren County Board of Supervisors, so that they can continue a rail operation, as the loss of the jobs would be tough on the area. A catch 22 if there ever was one!

I know I will never ride the train, but I would use the rail trail often!

Thanks for the update DS. Looks like a project that will likely get mothballed. I can't see IP keeping the whole thing going if they can't make money so even most of the jobs will go away eventually.

I would likely use the trail too if it existed although I have no issue with the road except for the occasional logging truck. There are some great down hills from long lake to NC.

Harv---the 50 yr thing is a memory that had something to do with a Right of Way for the rail lines.    If I recall, that was the thing that got the trail people looking at this rail line.    I looked around and could not find any links to it...but I know they are out there, somewhere.    I joined NY Rail/Trails when this all came about, maybe it was in their emails.    I know I was emailing and staying in touch with the head of this project.  Maybe he mentioned it.    


All---here is a link that started on the old SKIADK forum.    6 pages.   There are other pages that have similar discussions.    I can recall calculating the number of trucks the owners of the rail line said it would remove from the roads. I laughed at the numbers they were using and proved them way wrong.   Cannot find that.

Snowballs attended some of the hearings or meetings.  He was very involved.

Reading the old thread brought back some memories and reminds us to PLEASE copy and paste articles from news outlets in addition to giving the link and source.    When I tried to click on a few story links, they are now dead.    

Harv---in this thread you announce: 1) you are working hard learning how to do a blog.  2) Announce your new blog.    


http://forums.skiadk.com/showthread.php?2310-Rail-to-Bicycle-trail-plan




Darkside--you mention the rail is employing some NC/Warren county residents.   I am glad to hear this.  I was not aware of any significant employment beyond what would be used for the scenic train.  And as you note, how long this can be sustained.  

As for the ridership on the train, I am surprised at 20-30/day.    That seems like a good number, more than I believed.  That said, one cannot operate a business on $500-700/day revenue, assuming a $20.00 ticket.    Employees, insurance, utilities, maintenance, (HUGE) fuel, profit.  I am sure the first year or two where the numbers were in the hundreds were the first waive of interested customers.    Once they ride, its over, not much for repeat business.      You need something to draw the folks to ride the train  vs driving.    One reason cars came to the market place----they are more convenient.  The time for trains in this area is sadly over, we need to admit it and move on.     Or dangle for another 10 years.  I am sad to say, "Park the train, paint it nice, let kids climb all over it.   Keep the museum."
 

raisingarizona wrote

Coach Z wrote

I don't understand why anyone busts on this Tupper development.  The more rich second home owners we can get in the Daks the better for people that actually live here.  The more rich folk the better.

I kind of disagree with ya on this Coach. I have lived in a bunch of different mountain towns out west here and once the focus is on giant McMansions the cost of living in that area goes through the roof. Sure, it provides some construction jobs at first and a few people get rich on that and doing real estate but after that long time locals start to get the boot. The property taxes go up with the mean property prices no? Once the build out is done the greed might continue with sketchy land swaps or what is left is just service industry jobs turning the locals into basically servants for the wealthy. I have seen it, lived it, and honestly I'm over it. The second home thing has become ridiculous and imo it can't be sustainable. No one needs a 5000 square foot house in the Daks that they hang out at for a few weeks a year. Another thing that living in towns like Jackson has taught me is that the wealth gap in this country is ridiculously extreme. I don't like the values of a lot of these people (not all of them) and I sure as hell don't like putting on a fake smile to get a small cash tip from these people.

I'm just saying be careful before you commit to selling out the place you probably love. The grass isn't always that much greener.

Yup, the kind of people you are going to attract are the sociopathic types that could care less about most anybody else in the world besides themselves. I'm blown away that the many ski towns out west that have turned into near feudal kingdoms of the few rich and the many poor servicing them after driving a half hour to work because they can't even imagine paying the RE prices near the mountain haven't been used as examples of what will happen to Tupper. Just today I read an article about the reaction a certain high end community is displaying during this California super drought. Some are openly indignant that they are forced to conserve like the little people. They pay more taxes! What, I have five acres, I should let it go back to desert? My Garden, my prescious garden! This community actually INCREASED their water usage when restrictions were first announced. Increased fees don't stop them, because they can easily afford them.
Forget about their involvement in the community. They're hardly ever around, and the kids certainly won't be going to Tupper schools. Is that the neighbor you want? Talk to Aspen, Telluride, Jackson residents (the average schmoes). Thay'll tell you.

In 1954, when Magaret Vanderbilt looked at her kids and asked, who wants Sagamore, no one stepped up. They all had the money but nobody cared enough. That's got to tell you something. That era is over, done, kaput.

PeeTex wrote

In 1954, when Magaret Vanderbilt looked at her kids and asked, who wants Sagamore, no one stepped up. They all had the money but nobody cared enough. That's got to tell you something. That era is over, done, kaput.

That is something to think about.