Report: ORDA could run Belleayre Ski Center

Press-Republican

December 21, 2011
Report: ORDA could run Belleayre Ski Center

Heritage Alliance opposes restructuring DEC-operated facility

KIM SMITH DEDAM
Press-Republican

RAY BROOK — A report from the state suggests the Olympic Regional Development Authority could be suited to run Belleayre Ski Center.

There is no final decision on restructuring, but apparent momentum has some groups concerned about what new management might foretell.

Located in the Catskills, the state Belleayre Ski Center is managed by the Department of Environmental Conservation.

According to state documents, the facility loses $4 million annually.

The Spending and Government Efficiency Commission (SAGE) is tasked by Gov. Andrew Cuomo to improve integration among state agencies to reduce cost through shared services — it issued the report that launched the review of Belleayre and its possible restructuring.

Bullet points in the new report, published Dec. 15, suggest "operation of Belleayre by the DEC restricts its flexibility and responsiveness to market needs" and, further, that "ORDA has the expertise to manage ski centers for the state, with the expectation that Belleayre could become self-sustaining over time."

MOTIVE QUESTIONED

ORDA tabled discussion of Belleayre operations at a board meeting this fall, focusing instead on recovery from Tropical Storm Irene and the remnants of Tropical Storm Lee.

Belleayre was used as a shelter for Catskill residents after major flooding hit the area in September.

The Catskill Heritage Alliance, formed of environmental groups and regional preservationists, countered the state's review with its own report, based on a study completed in June.

"The SAGE presentation asserts DEC management 'restricts (Belleayre's) flexibility and responsiveness to market needs,' but we don't agree," Heritage Alliance Chairman Roger Wall said in a statement issued Monday.

"As a state-run ski area, Belleayre's 'market' is the citizens who pay taxes (and buy day passes) to support a ski center that offers affordable skiing in the Forest Preserve, and DEC management has served it well. We fear that switching to ORDA management may be less about efficiency and more of a gambit to channel public money and bonding authority to enable construction of the Belleayre Resort, which (the alliance) opposes as environmentally and economically destructive."

UNDER REVIEW

Officials at ORDA are awaiting a final decision.

"SAGE is looking at this as an option," ORDA spokesman Jon Lundin said. "Nothing has changed. Belleayre is still in the hands of the DEC."

DEC spokeswoman Charsleissa King said, "Like all agencies that are part of SAGE Commission recommendations, DEC is reviewing the proposal."

Chief among Heritage Alliance concerns is planned private development beside state-owned land.

Property adjoining Belleayre is an approved site for luxury-resort construction proposed by Crossroads Ventures.

"In 2007, as an enticement to concentrate the development on the west side of Belleayre, the state proposed a plan that would connect the public ski center to the resort to allow ski-in, ski-out lodging," Wall said.

"At the time, this proposal had a price tag of upwards of $45 million. The expansion would primarily benefit the guests of the resort, not the taxpayers who would foot the bill."

BUSINESS MODEL

DEC environmental review of Belleayre Resort is under way, and the process, Wall said, includes evaluation of the state ski center's Unit Management Plan.

"If ORDA is going to take over Belleayre, this change and ORDA's plans for Belleayre need to be scrutinized under this review. Under no circumstances should public money be spent on Ski Center expansions that primarily benefit a speculative real estate project."

The study conducted by the Heritage Alliance suggests a public "authority" structure at Belleayre would not turn the financial picture around.

"Although the authority (business model) is based on a 32 percent increase in skier visits, (the proposal) shows the ski center's payroll-related costs would fall by 43 percent, its associated maintenance and operation costs (e.g. utilities, repairs, supplies and equipment, patrol, grooming, gasoline, snow-making) would increase by less than 5 percent, and its insurance cost would be a small fraction of the reported industry standard," the report countered.

The Heritage Alliance claims that staking Belleayre in a public-private partnership proposes "serious issues for its future and that of the residents, businesses, and property owners in the Route 28 corridor and the Catskills region."

The Spending and Government Efficiency Commission report does not discuss particulars of any public-private partnership in connection with moving Belleayre operations to ORDA.

Email Kim Smith Dedam at: kdedam@pressrepublican.com

Its rather odd that I agree with the green folks but they are correct Bell is not in any way economically viable.  Orda will not be able to manage huge savings at a facility so far away.  There is no way to increase skier visits by that much while not dramatically increasing costs as well.

This is would be bad for every one involved and would lower the quality of the skiing at WF and Gore.

The best solution is to have a local develoment authority take over Bell and run it.

"According to state documents, the facility loses $4 million annually."

$4 million???? Mostly I have read losses of up to $1 million. Anybody know where these documents are hiding? I would love to see them.

ausable skier wrote

The best solution is to have a local develoment authority take over Bell and run it.

As long as it is not a new authority. There are already over 700 of these boondoggles in NYS. They are run by appointed politicos and in many cases do not answer to anybody except the Gov. They have the ability to borrow huge sums of cash that NYS is responsible to repay if there are problems. Some examples of these bad decisions are the Freedom Tower (Port Authority of NY/NJ), the Lake Placid Convention Center (ORDA), and the potential PILOT program at Big Tupper.

I think adding  Belle to ORDA is unworkable and will cause big financial problems for Belle.

I know there is no way to get actual numbers, but losing $4M per year just seems beyond the realm of possibility.  What's the total operating budget? I thought WF and Gore budgets are like $7-9M (?)

This is a sincere question, that I'd appreciate help with: why does Catskill Heritage Alliance think that ORDA management of Bell would help advance the construction of the resort?

x10003q wrote

I think adding  Belle to ORDA is unworkable and will cause big financial problems for Belle.

Belleayre already has big financial problems.  If it is operated under an authority - ORDA or other - at least there is public disclosure with independent 3rd party audited financials.  That's far more transparent than the current arrangement in which operating results are buried within a department budget.

I wonder how much in savings would come from cutting personnel and salaries?  How many of the DEC people are full timers?  II don't know much about Bell, but as a season pass holder at Gore I would def check it out if it were part of my pass - especially on weekends I wasn't headed to the north country.

Isn't this same group looking at the state getting rid of the ski areas or has that been set aside for now?

Huh? What group was "looking at the state getting rid of the ski areas?"  Well, maybe you're talking about Windham / Hunter objecting to the State's ownership of Belleyare.  If so, no, they haven't set that aside.

nvk497 wrote

Huh? What group was "looking at the state getting rid of the ski areas?"  Well, maybe you're talking about Windham / Hunter objecting to the State's ownership of Belleyare.  If so, no, they haven't set that aside.

you may recall that 18 months ago Orda's future was in serious doubt of having its funding totally cut to zero.  Instead the last two years the funding has been drastically reduced.  This has impacted everything at WF and Gore from maintanace to how much snow they can blow.  

I have 2 objections to adding Bell to Orda is that Bell is not in the ADk's which is what Orda's constitutional mandate is and modifying this should take a amendment to the constitution but that will be ingnored by the Gov.  Secondly - Bell hemorages cash and adding a multi million dollar loss to Orda will make it more likely to get its budget cut partially or totally in the future.  To sum up its not worth the risk to NY's crown jewels of skiing to add a 2nd rate catskills marginal ski area.  Either let it go belly up and turn into a Tele skiers playground for those willing to earn their turns or have a Catskill econ development agency take it over.

There was a committee ( I thought started right when Cuomo was elected) that included some state senators to explore how the state could save money.  One thing that kept coming up was selling the ski areas.  I can't find any info on it now after a quick google search.  

snowman wrote

There was a committee ( I thought started right when Cuomo was elected) that included some state senators to explore how the state could save money.  One thing that kept coming up was selling the ski areas.  I can't find any info on it now after a quick google search.

That's the SAGE commission, mentioned in the Press-Repub article above, but selling the ski areas was never a discussion point.  Combining Belle into ORDA was an early recommendation that is still on the table.


Edited:  Note to moderator / administrator.  Maybe this thread should be appended to the earlier existing thread on the same topic for continuity purposes.

Also, Snowman, there is a completely separate discussion that arose regarding privatization of the state-run ski areas.  It has its own thread.  That topic was unrelated to the SAGE commission's recommendations.

Adk Jeff wrote

snowman wrote

There was a committee ( I thought started right when Cuomo was elected) that included some state senators to explore how the state could save money.  One thing that kept coming up was selling the ski areas.  I can't find any info on it now after a quick google search.

That's the SAGE commission, mentioned in the Press-Repub article above, but selling the ski areas was never a discussion point.  Combining Belle into ORDA was an early recommendation that is still on the table.


Edited:  Note to moderator / administrator.  Maybe this thread should be appended to the earlier existing thread on the same topic for continuity purposes.

Also, Snowman, there is a completely separate discussion that arose regarding privatization of the state-run ski areas.  It has its own thread.  That topic was unrelated to the SAGE commission's recommendations.

Harv is right we have covered this multiple times but the short answer is that you can not sell the ski areas with out amended the NYS constitution which will not happen.  

My point is dumping Bell on Orda should also require an amendment since Orda was established with a constitutional amendment to start with.  The Gov or Legislature should not be able to change the intent or scope of Orda on their own.  Dumping Bell on Orda clearly would do that.

Was ORDA really established by constitutional amendment? It's a state authority. I may be mistaken, but I believe establishment of an authority is within the authority of the senate.

Personally I think ORDA shouldn't get involved with Bellayre.  They've got their hands full running the venues they already manage.

My understanding is that because the APA land which was constitutionally protected was moved to Orda's control the whole thing was commissioned under an amendment.  If anyone knows more detail please pipe in.

I also know that WF is about a mile from its constitutionally mandated max trail miles.  Once that last trail on Lookout Mt is cut WF can't add any more without amending the constitution.  This amendment issue is also why if Orda got zero funded the ski areas could not be operated by a 3rd party.  This is the crux of my argument against adding Bell to Orda - bigger $ losses increasingly will risk zero funding thus Bell directly threatens Whiteface and Gore continued operation.  Who in their right mind would agree that a 2nd rate catskill ski area is worth risking Whiteface and Gore.

Shut the thing down and Let Bell become the tele destination of the East and insure WF and Gore's continued survival.

ausable skier wrote

Who in their right mind would agree that a 2nd rate catskill ski area is worth risking Whiteface and Gore.

People who's jobs and way of life depend on the continued existence of that ski area.  

I'd give the same answer to someone who asked this question:

"Who in their right mind would agree that funding state-run ski areas is worth jeopardizing healthcare or education?"

Honestly I have no idea if ORDA assuming responsibility for Bell is a good thing or not and the answer could vary by constituent: ORDA, Whiteface, Gore, the other private Catskill ski areas, those living along the Rt 28 corridor, taxpayers and skiers. (Any I'm missing?)

A few observations and opinions:

If you are going to operate a ski area, you've got to invest in it.  It's not realistic to think that you can continue to operate Belleayre without capital improvements.  That's a choice that's black and white.

It's not fair to compare the "profitability" of Belleayre to Gore or Whiteface. It's comparing apples and oranges. If you only look at operating cost only, it looks like the ORDA ski hills are more profitable.

If you look at total expenditures - revenues, operating costs and capital improvement (and you discount the value of all three hills to the local economies) all three hills would be in the red. And Bell may have "lost" the least. While I think it's fair to consider capital improvements as separate when evaluating the performance of a state-owned individual mountain, when comparing one to another, it's not.  On the flipside - the local counties that benefit from Bell, should also have some skin in the game the way local municipalities contribute to ORDA.

The issue has other aspects to it as well. IF NY could reduce the bureaucracy, save money and put out a better skiing product, they've got to do it. Skiing aside, who would disagree if the govt you were paying for decided to consolidate authorities to save money?

ORDA has been a huge advantage for Gore and Whiteface, while the DEC hasn't really invested in Belleayre to the same extent. If Bell is to continue to operate, it should have a competitive product and stop undercutting private business (Hunter, Windham and Plattekill) with free tickets.

If NY does decide to invest in Bell at a level that is on par with Whiteface and Gore I think it could be at least as economically important as Whiteface or Gore.  If the state doesn't invest in it, ultimately it'll break down.

Your Whiteface and the years following  those 1980 Olympics have taken tons of money from the NY taxpayers.I live 4 plus hours fron Whiteface and when traveling that distance I would not chance Whitefaces conditions and would rather ski elsewhere. So it depends on where you live and how you personally perceive each mountain to whether they are worth it. Shut Iceface down I won't miss it.

Gunny J wrote

Your Whiteface and the years following  those 1980 Olympics have taken tons of money from the NY taxpayers.

This is only a part of the story. The money put in to the facilities run by ORDA has come back tenfold to NYS. People live inside the Park. They need jobs. This is also true for Belleayre. If Belleayre was closed as some have suggested the RT 28 corridor would be even even worse shape than it is now.

The sooner we realize that tourism is one of the only viable businesses in the Park the sooner we will stop worrying about spending money on these facilities in the Park.

Gunny J wrote

Your Whiteface and the years following  those 1980 Olympics have taken tons of money from the NY taxpayers.I live 4 plus hours fron Whiteface and when traveling that distance I would not chance Whitefaces conditions and would rather ski elsewhere. So it depends on where you live and how you personally perceive each mountain to whether they are worth it. Shut Iceface down I won't miss it.

if 500 vert feet of steep and 500 of flats are your thing than you have plenty of choices down there

if you like to rip on one of the most difficult mountains in the east that has more vertical than Vail their is only one choice.  In many ways the mountain makes the skier - enough said

I don't trust the Gov and Legislature to not give Orda Bell and then a year or two later decided that Orda is not worth funding because its loosing money.  I may be selfish but if it came to a skiers vote to save Bell or to save Gore / WF I'm absolutely positive which way that vote would go.  Don't I want to see Bell close - no but I really don't want it as a boat anchor around WF and Gore's necks either.  This season could be the true decision factor as mother nature is makings it own mind up and altitude and being farther north will be the difference between making money and not even being open.

There is a lot more to judge a mountain than its vertical drop.  My home moutain of 650vertft(14 miles away from home) has produced some of the best skiers you"ll find on any mountain.  Would I love to be 14 miles from 3500 verical ft Hell yeah but thats not the case.  This small mountain is still great for providing local jobs and recreational opportunities for the young and the aging. This year has been a tough challenge so far.


The bottom line is NY needs both Whiteface and Belleayre for those local economies. Lets keep them both going.