Resurface Open Terrain or Expand Terrain?

You're allowed to have a bias, but if you want a legit poll you should give choices across the spectrum.

Choice #5:

Focus on the terrain you have open, and only move to new terrain when that is in good shape.


Why does Gore start, every year on Fox/Ruby Sunway, Quicksilver and 3B? Because in Mike's mind, that is the most important terrain on the mountain.  It's true in November it doesn't change all in Jan or Feb.

That's pretty much what option 1 means.

I think a lot of ,people people would be pissed off if Gore had a 20' base on Sunway, Quicksilver, Ruby and FOX, and nothing else open. But if it meant skiing in June it may not be so bad. It also seems like Showcase is high priority, which I agree on because you get the most vert on the shortest intermediate run.

As far as terrain expansion goes, I am not a fan of the Burnt Ridge addition. I skied echo once this weekend and it took 5 minutes of pole pushing to get over there, and Echo was all frozen chunks of ice. If Sagamore isn't open its not worth going over there IMO. I would have rather seen the money spent on BR go into existing mountain facilities such as updating the High Peaks chair, and use the snowmaking power to build bases deeper on existing terrain. They could have opened Rumor and Chattiemac with the snow they made on Echo, and the flat trail that goes across the bottom.

Does anyone here know what the logic was behind the Burnt Ridge expansion?

Im guessing there is a thread on that somewhere, but I must have missed it.

Ethan Snow wrote

Does anyone here know what the logic was behind the Burnt Ridge expansion?

Racing

Burnt Ridge was the first part of the Ski Bowl bottomless pit that they keep aimlessly throwing money into and never really improve anything.  IMO, that whole mess prevents much needed upgrades from happening elsewhere.

Mistakes made in both expansions:

1.  Not upgrading snowmaking plant beforehand.
2.  Installing an expensive high speed lift with only 2 trails.
3.  Not building a proper connection to the Ski Bowl off Burnt Ridge.
4.  Cutting more glades on the lowest elevation terrain on the mountain that never open.
5.  Renting out Twister and Echo (vital connectors in and out of the new terrain) to NYSEF.

Why Whiteface didn't get the 3rd Lookout trail and snowmaking upgrades (to open that lift by Christmas) while Gore kept getting new terrain that was rarely/never used is completely beyond me.  The way it should work in ORDA is Whiteface gets an upgrade, and then Gore does, not the other way around.  

Im going with resurface and build base over all out terrain expansion.

Especially because NOAA released its annual global temperature study:
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201513

2016 is the warmest year in recorded history, taking 2015's place atop the mound. 2016 also displaces the previous record holders, 16 out of 17 of which have occurred since 2000.

A degree or two over the average doesn't sound like much, but as we all know its the difference between a Snow event or a rain event.

Another factor to consider is trail crowding if snowmaking doesn't expand to cover more terrain.  

For example, Uncas on Saturday at Gore.  They resurfaced it, which was sorely needed, but because it was still the only route from the gondola to Straightbrook, it was overcrowded and pretty much unenjoyable.  Now that Pine Knot is open, there's 2 routes from the gondola to Straightbrook and Uncas will be less crowded.

Of the recent ORDA terrain expansions, I think Whiteface's Lookout Mtn is the best when it comes to terrain.   Burnt Ridge requires too much skating to get in and out of and Echo is often closed for racing.  I don't even consider the Ski Bowl an expansion because it's only open maybe 10 days in an average year.  Just a drain on improvement funds elsewhere.

Whiteface can rectify all the issues with Lookout in one summer for less than the cost of a fixed grip lift.  

Fixing Burnt Ridge and getting the Ski Bowl to the point that I consider it an expansion would take many years.

With Mike Pratt as the head of ORDA, I suspect they're going to favor Gore even more than they did before.  Since 2008, Whiteface hasn't gotten any major upgrades, aside from snowmaking on Hoyt's and repairs to the LWF lift.  Gore has gotten a Triple, a HSQ, hundreds of new snow guns, 5 new trails, and countless glades.  One of the lifts is rarely used and the trails and glades are rarely skiable.

Its not a pure comparison though in regards to expansion policy.

Whiteface in many respects doesn't have the same opportunity to expand its terrain due to milage limits and overall topographical issues, so to say it was a "policy" on managements part not to have further expansion is purely speculation.

Gore has higher mileage limits and the terrain the ski area encompasses allow for a more straight forward build out. Whether they should have or not is certainly up for debate.

HAHAHAHAH

I'm voting "W"

I was told the lack of snow making this year at Gore (or laziness of snow making) was due to the fact they outsourced (contracted) the snow making personnel...I have no idea if this is true or just mountain chatter.

Whiteface has one more trail in the mileage limit and that's going to be the last trail on Lookout.  I don't see any better way to use that last trail, as LWF and the Summit are already built out and Lookout needs more terrain.  They don't really need any lift upgrades, so focus on upgrading snowmaking and cutting that last trail.

I think it's time for ORDA to go back to their roots and put some money into their flagship venue, Whiteface.  Gore had their chance to get all the improvement funds in the last 8 years, now it's WF's turn.

snoloco wrote

I think it's time for ORDA to go back to their roots and put some money into their flagship venue, Whiteface.

of course you do, after all it now effects YOU

Whiteface as a flagship from a branding and historical stand point is one thing, actual skier visits is quite another. Gore has been winning that battle for quite a number of years.

But I do agree, given the way the last few years have gone, and long term trends unlikely to improve, hopefully ORDA will be focusing heavily snowmaking investment at both Whiteface, Gore and Belleayre. I only hope ORDA/DEC shelve the expansion plans at Belleayre for a number of years because right now the lift build out they are planning would make the Gore buildout look like buying Apple stock in 2001

Whiteface, and even moreso Gore need significant investments in snowmaking if they intend to stay competitive in today's market and fight off climate change.

Belleayre's operation works pretty well as is and I don't see a need for investment greater than some trail improvement measures to eliminate intersections, making the Superchief run reliably, and incremental snowmaking upgrades.

The problem with Whiteface's most recent terrain expansion is that Wilmington Trail didn't really turn out as well as they had hoped.  It's very rocky in areas because of excessive blasting to make a blue out of something that probably should've been rated black and requires more snow to cover than it should've.  The trail itself really is a drain on resources and probably shouldn't be opened in a subpar year, but it's the only way a groomer can get to the top of that lift to groom the lift area, so it has to be opened if they want to open Hoyt's or Lookout Below, which are better trails and are far easier to cover.  Because of that, the choice becomes in a subpar year to either force an opening of a tough trail to maintain, or leave the entire section to rot (as was done last year).  I hope they force the opening because it's going to look really bad to have millions of dollars worth of lift and snowmaking infrastructure that will go close to 3 years without being used.  They need to cut that last trail and make it so a groomer can get up it so that the section can open without Wilmington.  Once that's done, they'll probably be able to open it following Skyward.

Gore spend millions of dollars on two complete trail sections and botched both of them pretty spectacularly.  They spent probably at least 10-15 million dollars and the days the new terrain is closed far outnumbers the days it's open.  They have snowmaking pipe on most of the trails now, but they can't use it unless the plant is upgraded.  They also should've put more than 2 trails off a section that's served by a HSQ.  I'm guessing the AE2, while 6 years newer will surpass the Burnt Ridge lift in operating hours in the near future.

A groomer can't go up hoyts?  I'm pretty sure I have pics of one doing so...

They can use a winch to go both directions, but that requires going to the top to attach the cable.  They can go down Hoyt's without being attached to a winch, but not up.

Sno is right

They only groom it with the winch cat and can't do it all in one pass as the trail is longer than the cable and not in a straight line.

I think everything Victoria and steeper requires a winch.  I saw them winching Draper's when they first groomed it back in December.