Resurface Open Terrain or Expand Terrain?

that's my petit homme!  yeah brother!

snoloco wrote

Whiteface can rectify all the issues with Lookout in one summer for less than the cost of a fixed grip lift.  

 I think you're right. I actually came up with that number but another factor may be that it costs a lot of money to run the equipment and pay staff to operate it. Lots of times Gore and WF don't even operate at a full 30 acre feet because they don't want to spend money until they can make some money. But if you don't have a decent amount of open skiing you're not going to make money.  It's a dificult game to balance. I think lot of it comes down to the attitude of the mountain management, and how aggressive they want to be. They probably figure the number of skiers who show up with 70% being open will only be a handful lower than if they had all lifts and all snowmaking open for Christmas. the additional cost of trying to open everything may cause the ski area as a business to operate at a loss.

They can and do operate at full capacity quite often at Whiteface.  Many guns running all over the mountain on Sunday.  They can run about 100 guns, and I'm sure they were doing very close to that.

Wilmington Trail is a huge drain of snowmaking resources, but has to be open before Hoyt's and LBO can.  Cut that 3rd trail so the groomer can get up it without a winch, and that section will be able to open sooner, although not quite by Christmas unless the snowmaking plant is upgraded.

It's not even all about just opening Lookout for Christmas, which would become very much doable with an upgrade of the plant from 30 to 45 acre feet/day.  Every year it's a battle to open the summit by then, and having that lift open determines whether that week is profitable or not.  The extra firepower would essentially guarantee that the Summit opened by Christmas, and allow Lookout to open by then in average to good years.

Ethan Snow wrote

 They probably figure the number of skiers who show up with 70% being open will only be a handful lower than if they had all lifts and all snowmaking open for Christmas. the additional cost of trying to open everything may cause the ski area as a business to operate at a loss.

One measuring stick could be lift lines. Gore and Face seldom have a line problem. If mgt looks about and sees short lines then bingo, enough terrain is open, balance achieved.

Having it open determines if people come BACK!! Family trips are scheduled months in advance.

Whiteface and Gore have plumbing almost everywhere, so only the plants need to be upgraded to increase firepower.

I'd love to see all of the WF summit terrain open, but doing that likely means leaving Lookout to rot.  Opening Lower Skyward would ease congestion on Victoria a loy.  Same goes with the terrain off the Freeway Lift.  On Sunday, it was open to the public all day, but only the racers were riding it because Draper's was closed for racing and the only trail open off it.  If they had Parkway and Thruway open all the way, more people would've been riding it.

Or, to be the devil's advocate, seldom having lines means not attracting enough customers.

Ethan Snow wrote

Harvey wrote

The choices you offered reveal your new terrain bias.  I'll take one trail with soft snow over any number of trails with boilerplate.

Thats true. I was thinking that But didn't say anything. You should really offer options both opposing, and for your bias if you really want to know what people think.

Looking at the vote totals so far, the fact that the greatest number voted for the available option that is on the resurfacing end of the scale, is an indicator that some may have gone even farther in that direction if the option was available.

In any case it looks like Aaron and Mike are in synch with the few who've voted here.

snoloco wrote

Whiteface and Gore have plumbing almost everywhere, so only the plants need to be upgraded to increase firepower.

If they had Parkway and Thruway open all the way, more people would've been riding it.

You could upgrade the plumbing to add in extra valves so that less piping has to be charged.  I think there are only a few valves on the hill now, Lookout being one.

Not many people ski Parkway.  It's not a really obvious trail for people who aren't familiar with the mountain and the b-netting is weird when you get to Draper's.  It's a great trail when it's open.

We should all reflect at this point and be thankful that NYS moved the ski area from Marble Mountain to Little Whiteface and Whiteface proper or we would have a number of other things to complain about.

Marble Mountain

D.B. Cooper wrote

Not many people ski Parkway.  It's not a really obvious trail for people who aren't familiar with the mountain and the b-netting is weird when you get to Draper's.  It's a great trail when it's open.

Parkway is low priority IMO.  I'd rather have Lookout open than the other trails near the Freeway lift.

snoloco wrote

D.B. Cooper wrote

Not many people ski Parkway.  It's not a really obvious trail for people who aren't familiar with the mountain and the b-netting is weird when you get to Draper's.  It's a great trail when it's open.

Parkway is low priority IMO.  I'd rather have Lookout open than the other trails near the Freeway lift.

Yet Lower Parkway, Draper's Drop, Lower Thruway, and Calamity Lane are the best trails for "new" or "developing" intermediates (past Boreen, not yet ready for Paron's): short and lap-able but with an interesting amount of pitch. Having them open takes pressure off Excelsior and Thruway, which can be a shitshow, as we all know. And once these developing skiers get some laps in, they're much less likely to become traffic cones somewhere on upper Little Whiteface.

My pet peeve is more that management doesn't run the Freeway lift nearly enough, even when all those trails are open.  

Does anyone know why Gore seems to have been very slow with snowmaking this season???  I was on the mountain many times (with adequate snowmaking temperatures) when there were absolutely no guns running.  Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned "outsourcing" of snowmaking staff.  What are the facts?  Has there been a mechanical, staffing, or funding issue?  

Scersk wrote

Yet Lower Parkway, Draper's Drop, Lower Thruway, and Calamity Lane are the best trails for "new" or "developing" intermediates (past Boreen, not yet ready for Paron's): short and lap-able but with an interesting amount of pitch. Having them open takes pressure off Excelsior and Thruway, which can be a shitshow, as we all know. And once these developing skiers get some laps in, they're much less likely to become traffic cones somewhere on upper Little Whiteface.

My pet peeve is more that management doesn't run the Freeway lift nearly enough, even when all those trails are open.

Management runs the Freeway Lift almost every day.  NYSEF pays them to operate that lift midweek.  Otherwise only the gondola would run on LWF except on weekends.  Draper's is almost always closed for racing, and they blow it wet, so it's very ice when open to the public, as I saw on Sunday.  One and done.  If they're using the course that extends to Upper Thruway, then you can't get to Lower Thruway without crossing the race course, so the only way to cut over is through Burton's from the midstation.  That leaves one trail, Parkway open to the public off that lift.  Sure you can take Mt Run to Valley, but I'd rather just jump on LWF if I'm skiing that run.  As Coach said in the other thread, the course extends up to the top of the Freeway Lift via Upper Parkway when they have Super G and FIS level GS events, so the only trail open to the public would be Parkway from the Freeway midstation.  Racing is really the sole reason that lift runs, so take advantage of whatever terrain is open in that area when open.

Here's how I look at it.  I'd rather have Hoyt's, LBO, and Wilmington Trail open every day from February to the end of the season, than have Parkway and Thruway covered, but some or all of them frequently closed for racing, or have to take the gondola to lap them once the Freeway Lift is shuttered at the end of the racing season.  Also, if they close the gondola and run Facelift in the spring (as was done in 14-15), that terrain requires 2 lifts to lap.

CMR wrote

 Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned "outsourcing" of snowmaking staff.  What are the facts?  Has there been a mechanical, staffing, or funding issue?

I was wondering the same thing. I noticed that The last time I was at Gore that they had a whole new fleet of very nice Skandic snowmobiles. The Snowmakers were all wearing  black jackets and they did not have the ORDA symbol on them which I thought was strange. That scenario did strike me as different, and that would make sense if this is true.

I was also talking to a local guy who was about my age at Garnet Hill. He said that Gore only hires "locals who don't have any better opportunities elsewhere". Basically he was saying that ORDA isn't interested in paying a slightly higher wage to attract skilled employees that may have to come from slightly further away. He said they actually don't want employees to have outside knowledge about other industries but would rather them be unlnowledgable to they can be trained from the ground up, and paid crap.  I don't have a clue of this story has any meat to it or if it was just a rant from this guy. I would personally hope it's not true.  It seems like if Gore takes this approach, it would be difficult to keep reliable help, and outsourcing certain operations may be necessary.

The rumors of a perfect storm of mechanical issues are everywhere.  I haven't really invested the time to confirm them.

snoloco wrote

As Coach said in the other thread, the course extends up to the top of the Freeway Lift via Upper Parkway when they have Super G and FIS level GS events, so the only trail open to the public would be Parkway from the Freeway midstation.  Racing is really the sole reason that lift runs, so take advantage of whatever terrain is open in that area when open.

Ah, I had missed Coach Z's info in the other thread. My Whiteface excursions have tended to be in the very early or very late season, so I haven't seen Freeway open much. Now I understand why.

And you're probably right: Parkway's a great trail but sits very exposed on the south side of LWF, so whatever is blown on it isn't going to last. Better to have Wilmington open, always. Last year's trip was so… unfulfilling with it closed.

Ethan Snow wrote

CMR wrote

 Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned "outsourcing" of snowmaking staff.  What are the facts?  Has there been a mechanical, staffing, or funding issue?

I was wondering the same thing. I noticed that The last time I was at Gore that they had a whole new fleet of very nice Skandic snowmobiles. The Snowmakers were all wearing  black jackets and they did not have the ORDA symbol on them which I thought was strange. That scenario did strike me as different, and that would make sense if this is true.

I was also talking to a local guy who was about my age at Garnet Hill. He said that Gore only hires "locals who don't have any better opportunities elsewhere". Basically he was saying that ORDA isn't interested in paying a slightly higher wage to attract skilled employees that may have to come from slightly further away. He said they actually don't want employees to have outside knowledge about other industries but would rather them be unlnowledgable to they can be trained from the ground up, and paid crap.  I don't have a clue of this story has any meat to it or if it was just a rant from this guy. I would personally hope it's not true.  It seems like if Gore takes this approach, it would be difficult to keep reliable help, and outsourcing certain operations may be necessary.

First, I have heard Gore is having major mechanical issues with pumps.

That's not good. If Gore's pumps crap out we may not be able to ski rumor this year.