Shandaken to NY state: Use 1,200 acres to expand Belleayre

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2012/08/09/news/doc5022be1a765bd159430513.txt

I am going to sound like a greedy child here, but the truth hurts...if the state expands Belleayre, it will take up resources for improvements at Gore/WF.  The past 5 years or do have been awesome in terms of new terrain and lifts.  Hate to see it end.

this being the catskills the town board must be smoking wacky weed if they think that now that they are part of Orda Bell is going to expand by 1200 acres - 1200 acres is more skable terrian than WF.

I'll say it again Bell is losing money at a epic rate so until it can prove it can be profitable there is no way it should be expanded.  

I'm not an expert on Bell's infrastructure, but I'd think they need lift replacements before terrain expansion.

skunkape ... any idea where exactly is the terrain?



I don't understand Whiteface and Gore skiers not wanting Belleayre to get anything.  If (?) the argument is that state money is well spent in Wilmington and North Creek and produces positive revenue, then shouldn't the same thinking apply to Pine Hill?  If you don't invest in Bell, then eventually you'll have to shut it down.

I'm an open book on this issue - Bell will be a drain on Orda which will negatively impact the flagships of Gore and WF.  I'd much rather see Bell made into a Nordic ski area (sans lifts) then have WF or Gore running less lifts or making less snow.  

it may be a selfish motive but my reasoning is sound in that Bell can not and will not ever be profitable.  It lacks the terrian, lifts, verticall, pitch, snowmaking and location of its local competitors.  Normal commercial businesses can ocassionally overcome one major competitive disadvantage but no one can overcome this many negatives.  Orda could unwisely invest to improve lifts and snowmaking but there is nothing money can do to fix the other issues.  If you (and as NYS taxpayers we all do) owned Orda where would you spend your money?

If the town is so in love with this HILL they should have ended up running Bell not Orda becasue that is all Bell will ever be - a town ski hill not a major ski mountain that is profitable.

I think they are talking about the Highmount ski area... The Trails are already cut over there, just need a few new lifts. Rider visits would certainly increase and with better management, it could stop being a money sink.... Plus, I think gitter has adjacent property he will develop.

"Shandaken to NY state: Use 20 million dollars of NY taxpayer funds to expand Belleayre"

Please

ausable skier wrote

this being the catskills the town board must be smoking wacky weed if they think that now that they are part of Orda Bell is going to expand by 1200 acres - 1200 acres is more skable terrian than WF.

I'll say it again Bell is losing money at a epic rate so until it can prove it can be profitable there is no way it should be expanded.

I am never suprised by the Amazing Ausable Skier's ablilty to create a scenario that is simply impossible to exist. Kudos. You are my favorite ski fiction writer.

Who wouldn't want to see a 1200 acre ski area in the Catskills? It would be the most amazing resort anywhere on the East Coast! It would be bigger than Sugarloaf (1056 acres) and  Killington (752 acres). There are a few obstacles in trying to expand Belleayre's 171 acres to 1200 acres, but who cares?

I say go for it.

it was the townny guy Shandaken that said expand it to 1200 acres not me

dude might still be tripping from his woodstock days

Come to think of it 1200 acres with only 5 miles of trail could be pretty cool.

Does skiing Highmount require another lift or can you skootch into the woods and access it?

Harvey44 wrote

Come to think of it 1200 acres with only 5 miles of trail could be pretty cool.

Does skiing Highmount require another lift or can you skootch into the woods from Dot Nebel and access it?

You can get there from Dot Nebel but I think you need a lift to get out of those trails. They could run a shuttle. I think the chair is still up.

x10003q wrote

Who wouldn't want to see a 1200 acre ski area in the Catskills? It would be the most amazing resort anywhere on the East Coast! It would be bigger than Sugarloaf (1056 acres) and  Killington (752 acres). There are a few obstacles in trying to expand Belleayre's 171 acres to 1200 acres, but who cares?

I say go for it.

Ya have a little NYS constitution problem to deal with. Bell, like WF, is limited to 25 miles of trails.
Who the heck came up with the 25 miles for Bell, 25 for WF and 40 miles for Gore restrictions way back when?

Actually You can get there from the last big dogleg of Deer Run. No action there last year, but the year before some old timers were poaching it. It takes a bit of planning and work: you need a buddy, one parks a car at the bottom of the hill of the old highmount, then you both go over in second car to tomahawk lift and cut through the woods a short stretch. You can actually see the top of one of the lifts from Deer Run if you know where to look.

Nice graphics skunkape.  I remember skiing with Tony once and he pointed out the corner on Deer Run where you'd jump out.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Ya have a little NYS constitution problem to deal with. Bell, like WF, is limited to 25 miles of trails.

That what I meant when I said..

Harvey44 wrote

Come to think of it 1200 acres with only 5 miles of trail could be pretty cool.

Bell is at 20 of the 25 mile limit.

But, when Gore "added" the Ski Bowl,  the terrain on Town of Johnsburg land did not go against the mileage count. So maybe the Highmount terrain wouldn't have to be counted and the 5 miles could be used for the interconnect.

x10003q wrote

Who wouldn't want to see a 1200 acre ski area in the Catskills? It would be the most amazing resort anywhere on the East Coast! It would be bigger than Sugarloaf (1056 acres) and  Killington (752 acres). There are a few obstacles in trying to expand Belleayre's 171 acres to 1200 acres, but who cares?

 Somebody, somewhere, may have told you once, that size doesn't matter. I've heard it from every woman I've known. They make it a point to tell me.

Killington and Sugarloaf get a whole lot more snow and a whole lot less rain. It's why I drive five hours.

Some investment in Belleayre is inevitable under the terms of transfer to ORDA.  To Ausable Skier's point about turning Belle into a nordic venue, I don't think it's happening.  Turning Belle into a decent nordic venue will also require a significant investment.  They'd need to expand their trail system and install snowmaking for xc.  I'm not driving 130 miles to ski on a 9 km trail system.

Obviously, I don't think it's fair to say that Bell will never and can never be profitable. It's a tight little package and gets enough natural, it's also within hours of millions of people. Not my favorite hill, but people do choose it. 100K paid visits properly run should put it in the black.

BUT what bothers me about this transaction is this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/nyregion/13catskills.html

Gitter sells the land to the state ostensibly to "prevent development" of the wild lands but keeps the best roadside parcels at a handsome profit considering opportunity cost, etc. Then instead of it being folded into the state portfolio of park land, he screams along with the town for development. He also has roadside parcels, so whatever the state puts into it, his holdings are now worth 50x. And because the state can do what it wants (constitution be damned), this is a no brainer. Highmount already has a chair and trails and nice pitch, I'm sure they'll find a way to include it against the cap. And put condos on it. Or whatever they want that will make money. All I know is, this is exactly the kind of corruption that insures that not everyone plays by the same rules in NY state. ORDA should do well with it though. You get a leg up when all of your deals are greased by the local population screaming for development, ready to bend any rule to get it, and millions of dollars that mysteriously appear to get the hard work done in leiu of the proper channels and financing for infrastructure.

Sorry for the rant, the Catskills oligarchy is not how I wanted to start my day reading about ski news.

Peter Minde wrote

Some investment in Belleayre is inevitable under the terms of transfer to ORDA.  To Ausable Skier's point about turning Belle into a nordic venue, I don't think it's happening.  Turning Belle into a decent nordic venue will also require a significant investment.  They'd need to expand their trail system and install snowmaking for xc.  I'm not driving 130 miles to ski on a 9 km trail system.

Peter you mistook what I meant by Nordic.  I meant no lifts, no snowmaking, no grooming - just keep cutting the grass and brush and let folks earn their turns.  You can't lose money that way and for some folks they would really dig it in a good snow year.

ausable skier wrote

Peter you mistook what I meant by Nordic.  I meant no lifts, no snowmaking, no grooming - just keep cutting the grass and brush and let folks earn their turns.  You can't lose money that way and for some folks they would really dig it in a good snow year.

@Ausable: it appears that we use different nomenclature.  What you're describing is what I call backcountry skiing.  When I hear nordic skiing, I'm thinking trails groomed and maintained for skinny race skis.

Cutting down grass and brush is trail maintenance, and no one's gonna do it for free.  How much maintenance and how many man hours?  Every other summer, once a summer, twice a summer?  You're losing money already, unless you plan to charge an entry fee, which will entail paying people to be on site to collect said fee.  Additional overhead.

I'd like to hear from the backcountry skiers, 'cuz I ski strictly groomed track xc.  Would you pay $$ to go to a back bowl where you've gotta earn your turns?

I'd also like to hear from those who've skied all the big Catskills venues.  Hunter, Plattekill, Windham, Belle.  What are their relative merits?  Is one head and shoulders better than the rest?  Harv, is a survey feasible here?

Peter Minde wrote

I'd also like to hear from those who've skied all the big Catskills venues.  Hunter, Plattekill, Windham, Belle.  What are their relative merits?  Is one head and shoulders better than the rest?  Harv, is a survey feasible here?

PM ... polls are now possible as the first post in a thread. Start a new thread and you will see the poll option below the white post area.