Ski Boot Comfort: Alpine and Tele

mattchuck2 wrote

Also, Harv, there is no Alpine boot that's going to be considered comfortable for you. Especially coming from a Tele Boot. Anything you get is going to feel like you're putting your foot in a vise (which you kind of need for good performance). I ski in a 110 flex and have a really nice fit, but it still feels beautiful at the end of the day when I take them off . . . With a Tele boot, I'm comfy all day and feel much less of a difference when I switch into my man Uggs.

Sorry to have hijacked multiple threads into my boot/binding conundrum.

Would actually like to start a poll on this question but that would be yet another thread.

Like MC2 I consider my teleboots to be extremely comfortable.

I'd always assumed that there was no way alpine boots could be as comfortable as teleboots, but was told that that was old thinking.

Votes yea or nea? Is there anyone who could get a good night's sleep in their alpine boots?

Harvey44 wrote

Votes yea or nea? Is there anyone who could get a good night's sleep in their alpine boots?

If someone could get a "good night's sleep" in their alpine boots, they probably are not fit right. Alpine boots don't have to be painful and certainly shouldn't be uncomfortable. But they shouldn't have any wiggle room. Taking em' off at the end of the day should feel divine and relieve a little pressure. You'd have to pay me for me to try to wear them to bed.

riverc0il wrote

Harvey44 wrote

Votes yea or nea? Is there anyone who could get a good night's sleep in their alpine boots?

If someone could get a "good night's sleep" in their alpine boots, they probably are not fit right. Alpine boots don't have to be painful and certainly shouldn't be uncomfortable. But they shouldn't have any wiggle room. Taking em' off at the end of the day should feel divine and relieve a little pressure. You'd have to pay me for me to try to wear them to bed.

Was sorta kidding but not totally. River, in the times we've skied together, I've never seen you buckle your boots until you were done for the day.  The peeps who unbuckle at every opportunity - is that a "performance fit" or bad fit?

And if I'm so loose in my tele boots that they are comfortable, wouldn't I still get SOME "performance" advantage for a more relaxed alpine fit?

The Swede we found taking a snooze on the sidewalk with his ski boots on in St. Anton must have had a comfy pair. What an apres-ski scene!

Harvey44 wrote

The peeps who unbuckle at every opportunity - is that a "performance fit" or bad fit?

With the possible exception of racers, I would say bad fit. With my previous Salomon boots I could only get that snug fit by having the lower two buckles super tight, and would back them off on the ride up. I came to the conclusion that the boots were too big for me. With my new Full Tilts (with Intuition liners, footbeds and custom fit), I do them up once and that is that. Sometimes I even tighten them up more as the day goes on. Great fit, no sloppiness and they are the warmest ski boots I have ever had (with the exception of my Crispi tele boots). A down side of the FTs is that you have to re-adjust the buckles every time you do them up, so they are a tad fiddly. No big deal. The worst thing about them is that the liners are very damp at the end of the day, so I pull the liners out and dry them every night. Never had to do this before and it is a common complaint about Full Tilts. IMO the light weight, warmth and great fit of these boots outweigh the negatives.

Harvey44 wrote

And if I'm so loose in my tele boots that they are comfortable, wouldn't I still get SOME "performance" advantage for a more relaxed alpine fit?

Theoretically, your tele boots should be comfortable because they are made of softer plastic, have flex in the toe area and a nice liner. There is no performance advantage to a loose fit - is that what you mean by "relaxed?" Or, are you talking about flex?

I'll echo what SBR notes. Racers need to unbuckle to not cut off circulation because they lock em' down tight. Any one that needs to unbuckle when going up a chair could probably benefit from a foot bed, better liner, or have a bad shell fit. Ski boot shouldn't be painful to the point of needing to unbuckle every lift ride. For myself, like SBR, I may actually need to tighten during the day as my feet get really hot. Sometimes I'll need to unbuckle if I hit the bumps hard on my first run... that probably has more to do with my flat feet than anything else.

There really is only one "fit" for an alpine boot. You want a shell that fits pain free and you want the boot to be fairly tight without much wiggle room. When you turn, you don't want you foot moving around in the boot side to side or front to back (ankle flex, okay). When people throw around the term "performance fit" what they really mean is "fit". It is rather black and white in my eyes. Either the boot fits for its purpose or you bought the wrong boot or didn't get a good fit at the shop.

you have a bad fit if you have to unbuckle your boots frequently. i think that it is part of racer's lore that boots must be painful to be good. sometimes, i don't even unbuckle my boots for lunch. one tip that i picked up is to loosely buckle boots for the first couple of runs, then tighten to their usual position. i rarely readjust throughout the day unless it is heavy, wet slop which requires lots of pounding. also, there is a huge difference between stock liners and intuition. the intuition is so snug, especially in the ankle area that stock liner all feel sloppy, even new ones. a good fit is a snug fit but not painful. most people require at least a couple of adjustments. don't suffer.

Serious thread drift so this may need to be broken out into its own thread but a good discussion.

I agree with the start the buckles loose and gradually tighten them thru out the day.

I also am a big fan of the booster strap when used properly.  The strap goes under the plastic cuff not over it as a regular power strap goes.

I think that loosening your boots allows for better blood flow on the lift keeping your feet warmer on cold days.

I also agree that the Intuition liners are great but also found as others mentioned that they tend to be damp at days end.  I try to take them out of my shell every night to dry which is kind of a pain but they do go in and out of the shells very easy compared to traditional liners.  

One thing I really like about my current boots is that the intuiton liners have a optional lacing system like a snowboard boot.  I find that this really gives me a great fit with good heel retention.

On warm spring days, my feet expand a lot when I'm skiing and it ends up being really painful in my alpine boots when I'm sitting on the lift (which is why I do the unbuckle thing in the lift line or after the first tower). This, combined with the foot cramps I get when wet spring snow melts into my lasts, is enough to make me want to ski tele all spring.  

I like my alpine boots, I have a good fit, but you're talking about the difference between a tank top and a straight jacket in terms of comfort (and freedom of movement).

What changed things for me was a fit by a certified expert and a custom foot bed.  I have been in the same atomics since 2005 and they have been quite comfortable. The footbed was $150 and was worth every penny.

mattchuck2 wrote

On warm spring days, my feet expand a lot when I'm skiing and it ends up being really painful in my alpine boots when I'm sitting on the lift (which is why I do the unbuckle thing in the lift line or after the first tower). This, combined with the foot cramps I get when wet spring snow melts into my lasts, is enough to make me want to ski tele all spring.  

I like my alpine boots, I have a good fit, but you're talking about the difference between a tank top and a straight jacket in terms of comfort (and freedom of movement).

Matt are you becoming more of a tele-evangelista or have you always been one?

mattchuck2 wrote

On warm spring days, my feet expand a lot when I'm skiing and it ends up being really painful in my alpine boots when I'm sitting on the lift (which is why I do the unbuckle thing in the lift line or after the first tower). This, combined with the foot cramps I get when wet spring snow melts into my lasts, is enough to make me want to ski tele all spring.  

I like my alpine boots, I have a good fit, but you're talking about the difference between a tank top and a straight jacket in terms of comfort (and freedom of movement).

In the spring its not that your foot is much bigger its that the plastic in your boot shell is bigger and much softer leading us to ski with the the boots much tighter than you would do in say January when its colder.  In crud (and powder) good skiers use much more retraction which is a move that starts in your feet so that puts more strain on your foot at a time when your boots tend to hurt more.  My feet actually hurt most on a powder day than in the spring.

Probably becoming more . . .

But I think I'd be okay with a good pair of AT boots, too. I feel like the Alpine boot is beginning to die a long deserved death. The future is walk mode, vibram soles, and comfortable feet (with little to no penalty in performance). We have the technology!

Coach Z wrote

 good skiers use much more retraction which is a move that starts in your feet so that puts more strain on your foot at a time when your boots tend to hurt more.

Off topic, but, umm . . . Really? Imagine if you were bouncing on a trampoline and in mid-air you wanted to retract your legs into an airborne cannonball-like position. Would it be more effective to start that movement from your feet? Or would you be more likely to use your quad muscles to lift your legs to your chest? It might be one of those things where it's just two different ways to think about the same movement, but I wouldn't say that the retraction move "starts in the feet"

You are correct that the shell expands in the warmth and necessitates more buckling down. But I was just saying that my feet also expand, otherwise they wouldn't hurt so much when I got to the lift line.

Coach Z wrote

I also am a big fan of the booster strap when used properly.  The strap goes under the plastic cuff not over it as a regular power strap goes.

So I've been doing it wrong all these years?

I have new Fischer boots and I am very excited.  I adored my Atomics but after 6 seasons, they are pretty shot.  I cannot wait to try these!

I can sleep in my AT boots in walk mode. Alpine would be tough because the whole knees bent thing while lying on your back. It could improve my technique though in ski dreams.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Coach Z wrote

I also am a big fan of the booster strap when used properly.  The strap goes under the plastic cuff not over it as a regular power strap goes.

So I've been doing it wrong all these years?

according to booster straps web site - yep you are doing it wrong

http://skimetrix.com/instruction.html

I too had it wrong for a while but it you put it out side your plastic shell all it does is make the boot stiffer which is maybe ok on ice but not so good for bumps and other conditions.  The reason you use a booster strap is not to make the boot stiffer but to gain more shin to boot contact all the way thru the turn.  With and conventional power strap you have shin contact with the tounge of the boot only when you are flexing but loose it during extention which is when you really need it as that is the start of the turn.

Trust me and try it the other way for a whole day and you'll get it.  Depending on your boot it may be somewhat ackward and may require a few adjustments.  Your need to check the height to get it right and also may need to move your upper clasp outward to compensate for the extra thickmess of the strap under the shell.  

I personally even take the back screw out of my shell so i can make my boot softer.  Its not forward stiffness anymore that matters its lateral stiffness and you want as much range of flexsion and extention as possible.  My 130 rated shells ski about 110 with the way i configure them and I'm a strong / big guy.  Note there is no a standard flex rating between brands - every mfr rep will clearly tell you this.

so you are gonna lock down your heels for good or are you gonna go both ways?...not that there is anything wrong with that