Skiers: How Much Makes You Rich?

I always thought it was interesting to see how people define wealthy.

I remember reading an article that said 70% of people consider themselves middle class, so maybe wealthy is "anybody who has more than me."

For HH income, 60k puts you at the US median (right in the middle) and 100k puts you in the top 20%.

But wealth isn't really income it's assets minus debt. Interesting article, never saw it quantified like this before:

http://fortune.com/2018/05/15/how-much-to-be-wealthy-in-america/

That's a tough question.

I like this from the article you posted:  

 “I realized that money is nothing more than fuel,” he said. “It is a resource that lets you have choices, but if you don’t think about what you are working for, you will die rich but not live rich.”

My grandfather would always say, "it's not how much you make but rather how much you save".

I know I learned a big lesson in 2008 --- that whole thing really set me on my heels for a while, and I don't mean months. It took me a few years to climb out of that mess and I don't ever plan to get back there again.

I'm very happy with where I live and my lifestyle, but to make me rich I would need more time off. To me being "rich" would be spending more time with my lady, family, and friends. Being able to take more time for hunting, riding, skiing, fishing, weekend trips, etc etc. I don't need or do fancy. One thing I've always felt strongly about is to be rich one needs to be debt free. You don't need lots of money if you have no bills.

How much that takes?? I dunno --- someday, hopefully, I'll be able to let you know.

Good topic Harv👍

I’d have to agree with Camp, having time to enjoy the things you’ve worked hard for (your home, car, new pair of skis, a new gun, vacation with family) and being debt free and able to pay your bill before they are due all give me a feeling of being “rich”.

When I was in my 20s, all I did was work.  It was ok though, I was single, no kids yet, and didn’t have to answer to anyone.  I invested well, accumulated some rental properties, built a new home, and always drove a nice vehicle.  Some of this involved taking on debt which I was ok with.

Fast forward to my 30’s, I got married, started a family, and started my own business.  I worked a lot to pay off debt and when that was accomplished, my income went so much further.  

Now that I’m in my 40’s I value my free time more than I ever have.  I’m less concerned about driving a nice truck, it’s 12 years old and losing the battle with rust, but I haven’t had a payment in 7 years now.  I’m able to tweek my work schedule now to have free week days in the winter months for skiing.  Ski days are so much better when you’re sharing the mountain with a couple dozen rather than hundreds on the weekends. I always try to get as much work done Monday thru Thursday in the summer so I can either have a short day on Friday or have it completely off.  

Two other things that make me feel rich are health and friends.  I have a great group of friends who are always there for me when I need them.  And if you don’t have your health you can’t enjoy most of what you’ve worked for.

It’s not so much how much you make as how much you net after spending and your resultant quality of life

I could for sure make more say living in Boston metro or Jersey but my spending  to do so would be multiples of what my cost of living is now and my quality of life would be lower.  To me that’s not worth it.  I’m living a great  life in an awesome place.  It forces me to travel a bit more for work at times but it’s a good trade off in my book.

Debt is something that freaks me out and I try like hell to not do.  NW and ski racing at the elite level is pushing me to fianace it that I’m learning to live with but it’s tough.  I’m trying to balance that against paying for college and then retirement at a reasonable age.

My biggest problem with Gov’t data and “defining” the “middle class” is that the discussion is almost always based on averages, much like Harvey’s question.  However, analyzing anything based on averages is a fool’s errand.  While $60k puts one square in the middle of the average HH incomes nation-wide.....it doesn’t fall into the middle class range for places like NY, DC, LA or SF.....places where incomes pushing $200k are still in the “middle class” range......

Grandma always said, “your health is your wealth.”   So, by that standard I’m a billionaire!!

True, national averages are national averages.

In 2015 the highest state for median income was Maryland ($76,000) and Mississippi was the lowest ($40,000).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

Closer to home median income for 2016:



Numbers for NYC median income:

NYC in total: $55,000
Manhattan: $75,000
Bronx: $35,000

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/HSG010215/36061,36005,36081,36047,36085,3651000

It is NOT about what you make , it IS about achieving HNW with high quality of life ,good health and contentment . Financial Discipline , Impulse control and a health conscious life style and a deliniated goal oriented pathway toward the HNW goal is key . Early outs are very possible given that . It isnt rocket science .

Harvey wrote

True, national averages are national averages.

In 2015 the highest state for median income was Maryland ($76,000) and Mississippi was the lowest ($40,000).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

Closer to home median income for 2016:



Numbers for NYC median income:

NYC in total: $55,000
Manhattan: $75,000
Bronx: $35,000

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/HSG010215/36061,36005,36081,36047,36085,3651000

That chart has NH ranked 7th at $70,303. Just goes to show how stats and measurements need to be evaluated to ensure you are interpreting the data accurately. This stat, as a median, suggests to me that NH has a population bias towards southern MA border population centers like Portsmouth, Nashua, Salem, and Manchester. A LOT of NH/MA  boarder are residents commute into the Boston metro area AND those areas of the state have the highest population... which will both severely skew the state median upwards. Offset, of course, by much of the state's rural population with household income significantly below the median.

Wealth is a tough thing to define and measure because everyone views it differently... not just what dollar value or net worth makes you wealthy but also how you view being wealthy from a value perspective (someone who most people consider wealthy may not themselves view themselves as wealthy if they don't want to be identified or self identify as a one percenter... and vice versa for someone struggling to make it that wants to be identified as wealthy).

Wealth is always going to be a value based and relative measurement. One person's rich could be another person's poor and vice versa. Some want to self identify as rich, some would be aghast to be defined so. Rich could even be a perception based on the specific use and display of wealth rather than an objective measurement. It isn't how much money someone has but perhaps how they choose to spend and display it that invokes the characterization.

I believe national numbers have meaning. They give context.

I think that:

"The US median income is $60,000."

is more meaningful than:

"In Beverly Hills I can't get by on $200,000."

warp daddy wrote

It is NOT about what you make , it IS about achieving HNW with high quality of life ,good health and contentment . Financial Discipline , Impulse control and a health conscious life style and a deliniated goal oriented pathway toward the HNW goal is key . Early outs are very possible given that . It isnt rocket science .

Had to look up HNW.  Decided that in the context of this thread, it means High Net Worth.  A definition in the Urban Dictionary is " 'hard nipple weather.' Used most often when a person's nipples are visible through their shirt." ;=)

By the description above my husband is pretty wealthy, although he is missing the good health component.  My husband of 25+ years was frugal in college and grad school, bought a house soon after starting a career and had a housemate to help cover the mortgage payments in the 1980s, has bought all his cars for cash, and retired after 30 years with the same company with a good pension and a fully funded IRA.  He chose to go to a state college due to the cost even though he could easily have gotten into an Ivy League college.  His parents valued education and had the money saved for any college.

My HNW was mostly based on luck although I always paid off credit card balances and bought all but one car for cash. My parents paid for school thru college.  I lived at home for college and grad school until I got married (first time).  After grad school I joined a start up that went public successfully six years after I starting working there.  The key at that point was to diversify the stock and stock options I received for being an employee and senior manager.  The company eventually was taken private after the stock slumped but it didn't make a difference to me because I was holding very little company stock by then.

I started a long term relationship with a financial planner 20 years ago who understood my long term goals.  My husband manages his investments himself.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.  We essentially get the benefit of both.

You're rich if you can afford to ski all winter without having to have a job. That means you can support yourself (food, beer, place to live, bills) without having to work. Double bonus rich if you can afford to do that in Aspen or if you can go heli skiing for a few weeks.

So... Whether you have rental income to cover your costs, or you collect enough money in dividends, or you're retired, or you made enough money in the summer to do nothing all winter, you're a rich skier if you can get up every day and ski without having to worry about going to work.

Z wrote

Debt is something that freaks me out and I try like hell to not do.  NW and ski racing at the elite level is pushing me to fianace it that I’m learning to live with but it’s tough.  I’m trying to balance that against paying for college and then retirement at a reasonable age.

So are you saying your going into debt supporting you kids race habit? Is he the next Bodie Miller? Will he get a ski race scholarship? NYSEF is a great training ground for perseverence but if your betting the farm on your boys ski career you’re taking a big risk.

How many FIS points does he have? How many FIS points are needed to get a NCAA 1 scholarship? Most teams are limited to 6 scholarships for 14 team members, as I recall there are 12 teams. Most teams will give a partial scholarship so they can spread out the money, best case is your still paying 1/2 or around $30k/yr but your burning it all up on NW & ski training before the first year of college.

You seem like a very loving Dad but maybe you need to do some serious cost benefit analysis here.

We went through this with our granddaughter. Her parents pulled the plug on ski racing after her sophomore year of HS. They have the money to do private school, NYSEF, camps & college but they realized that a focus shift to academic training at that time, SAT prep training, a consultant for college applications and essays, loading up on AP classes, technology camps, music camps, etc. So killer SAT & ACT scores resulted and now the girl is in a great college with 75% academic scholarship and thier 529 will last through grad school and no impact to thier IRA.

Listen to your heart papaZ.  

I don't get this PeeTex. If life was all about financial ROI no one would ever have kids.

It seems like Z thinks hard about how he spends money.

Z wrote

To be honest I'm not sure which one of these kids is ZZ (far right?), but my guess is each of those kids is having the experience of a lifetime.

That was just a know it all #humblebrag on peetex’s part.

Don’t worry gramps, I’m sure the grandkids love you.

Harvey wrote

I don't get this PeeTex. If life was all about financial ROI no one would ever have kids.

It seems like Z thinks hard about how he spends money.

And you completely misread what I was saying. I could tell he thinks hard about how he spends his money. However if all he hears is spend spend spend and never hears another side than no objectivity enters in to the process.

 One of our jobs as parents is to provide our kids the best launch we can. If they are saddled with debt that’s not a good launch.
If we saddle ourselves with debt we run the risk of being a burden on them when we can no longer take care of ourselves. So another one of our jobs is to make sure we are not a burden on them when we are older.

I suspect Z is caught in the upper middle class sink hole. He makes to much for college financial aid, he won’t get the excelsior scholarship, all he’ll get is maybe a $5k Federal college loan. Even in state he’s looking at $100k to $120k.

You can do it all if you can afford to do it all, if you can’t you can’t. One of the problems we have as a nation is over consumption.

The R in ROI is not all $$s. Sometimes it’s human development.

I believe ski racing helps instill discipline and tenacity kids need in life to succeed but as well as teaching a lifetime sport they can enjoy. Some very talented kids can turn this into a lucrative career. Some can turn it into a fun job that they can do well enough to survive. But most move on with those lessons learned to be successful at what ever they choose to pursue. At what point has the lesson been learned, when is enough enough?

I do think ski racing is a good ROI for most up until about age 15 or 16. After that it gets very expensive and time consuming. He’s already spending close to $30k/y for private school (assuming his son didn’t get a NW scholarship and I think he’s a day student). That can be a lot of sacrifice and that says a lot about him as a caring parent.

witch hobble wrote

I’m sure the grandkids love you.

They sure do, they come by to visit all the time, usually they cook and bring the wine and we all have a great evening, I only hope you will have this enjoyment in your future junior.

Yes ZZ is the one with the big smile on his face on the far right

The experiences he is getting from this is worth the costs.  His grades are better during ski season as he needs to be more focused and disciplined.  Ski racing teaches a lot of life lessons that don’t exist in today’s PC everyone gets ice cream and a trophy world.  You need to be physically and mentally tough to do well.

Ptex should know that a u16 doesn’t race FIS yet.  That starts for him in 19-20.

NW is a far better HS school than AuSable was going to be for him.  I won’t get into the costs but I don’t see the tuition as being a ski related expense it’s an education expense.  Beyond that there then is the ~ 15 to 20k ski related costs.  It’s not a cheap sport but you need to be on snow.  He skips the two Colorado camps to do the Euro ones as we think you get more out of them and the early dec one you can be on snow here.  We make it fit into a budget that I don’t love but we are not killing ourselves on.  Thanks for your concern for my financial well being.  What a guy!

Z wrote

 

The experiences he is getting from this is worth the costs.  His grades are better during ski season as he needs to be more focused and disciplined.  Ski racing teaches a lot of life lessons that don’t exist in today’s PC everyone gets ice cream and a trophy world.  You need to be physically and mentally tough to do well.

 

AMEN Z!!!

As I said in the Woodstove --- you should be one proud PappaZ

Hoops was my thing --- def WAY cheaper than skiing but my parents would send me to hoop camp every summer. Those were great experiences.