Specifically, What is it you'd like to change?

There are lots of reports saying that voters are angry and that the rise of Trump and Bernie are a message to the elites that the average worker feels left out of the post recession expansion. Wages are stagnant, GDP growth is sluggish, and it's hard to afford a middle class lifestyle as a one income family, as used to be the case.

But what, specifically, would you like to see done about it? What sorts of programs would you like to see the next President propose that would address these problems? Or should they be addressed at all? Are you of the thinking that if we slash corporate tax rates and individual tax rates for rich people, then the resulting boom will lift all ships?

I do not subscribe to that trickle down theory, so here are some proposals I have:

1. Helicopter drops of money (not actual helicopter drops, but a check that goes to every single living person with a social security number for $1,000. Yes, it will cost $350 billion or so. But it will bring much needed temporary relief to a lot of families, and most of that money will be recirculated back into the economy. If it leads to inflation, okay, we could use a bit of inflation, especially in wages).

2. Reallocate military spending. Keep the money we spend on soldiers and veterans flowing, but  instead of spending tons of money to have Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin develop weapons for us, spend that money hiring people to do stuff in this country. Develop a new CCC, and pay people money to build and maintain trail systems, backcountry hut systems, and National Parks. Hire people and spend some money retrofitting old buildings with green power and energy efficiency. Put people to work in this country making it a better place to live.

3. Raise the minimum wage to $15, starting with companies that have more than 5 stores or franchises immediately, then moving on to mom and pop stores eventually. Yeah, it might be tough, but if you can't pay people $15 an hour, you can find a way to do the work yourself. You'd probably pay more for a contractor anyway.

4. Go after tax cheats, both individual and corporate. Make everyone pay their fair share. No more holding profits overseas so that they aren't subject to tax laws that you know about and are consciously avoiding. Pay what you owe. Similarly, close tax loopholes that benefit the rich. Close the carried interest loophole and close whatever loophole allowed Romney to amass a $50 million fortune in his 401k. Use this money to pay for Infrastructure improvements here at home.

5. Eliminate the cap on earnings taxed by Social Security. Right now, most of the middle class pays Social Security taxes on 100% of their income, where people like Romney and Trump pay Social Security tax on maybe 5% of their income. This is unfair. The people at the top should have just as much income subject to taxation as the people at the bottom. Use this money to sure up Social Security financing for the next 75 years (and maybe offer increased payouts if the math works out and shit hits the fan with our shaky 401k system).

Okay, there are some Liberal Hippy proposals that would make people's lives better immediately. What would everyone else want to see?

I like your plan MC, you'd get my vote!

What you're basically saying is leveling the playing field and I'm all for it. Bernie, imo, is saying the same thing.

Bernie was a terrible explainer of his positions, possibly due to age, possibly due to substance at times.

The social security system is grossly unfair.

mattchuck2 wrote

1. Helicopter drops of money (not actual helicopter drops, but a check that goes to every single living person with a social security number for $1,000. Yes, it will cost $350 billion or so. But it will bring much needed temporary relief to a lot of families, and most of that money will be recirculated back into the economy. If it leads to inflation, okay, we could use a bit of inflation, especially in wages).

This one sounds nice, but I would argue that 80% (perhaps more) of this money would be squandered.  People have financial problems for a number reasons.... low wages being one of them.  Lack of discipline, and stupidity are a couple of others.  I'm betting most people would choose to buy a new iPhone or 6 pairs of Birkenstocks with their welfare check.  

Take a few more bong-hits hippie.   ... Giving cash away (the Free stuff Z loves to hate) does not sound like a good option.

nepa wrote

This one sounds nice, but I would argue that 80% (perhaps more) of this money would be squandered.  

I dunno what squandered means here, with unemployment the money goes directly to bills and back in the service economy. It might distort the market for a few things, but it seems to 'offend' people more.

Ban bubble chairs
Limit the number of passes sold on any  day with 6" +
Deny access on powder days to anyone without at least 100mm skis. They get directed to bunny hill
Prohibit any  grooming or snowmaking  on top of fresh snow
Prohibit any new trail cutting. Glades only. Need to be green
No cabriolet's. Must be able to walk from parking lot

skimore wrote

Ban bubble chairs
Limit the number of passes sold on any  day with 6" +
Deny access on powder days to anyone without at least 100mm skis. They get directed to bunny hill
Prohibit any  grooming or snowmaking  on top of fresh snow
Prohibit any new trail cutting. Glades only. Need to be green
No cabriolet's. Must be able to walk from parking lot

I'm down with this... except the 100mm ski part.  My pow skis are 98mm at the shovel, and I think they ski it great for anything <25 degrees!  Especially with leather boots.  The whole thing is so light and free you feel like you are connected to the snow.

ml242 wrote

nepa wrote

This one sounds nice, but I would argue that 80% (perhaps more) of this money would be squandered.  

I dunno what squandered means here, with unemployment the money goes directly to bills and back in the service economy. It might distort the market for a few things, but it seems to 'offend' people more.

I think if you take a look at purchasing habits associated with "tax refunds," you'll get an idea of what I mean by squandering... Studies show that most people don't use their tax refunds to solve financial problems.

MC is proposing that Uncle Sam gives everyone a thousand bucks... with specific instructions:  "This money is to be used to provide temporary relief to your financial problems."

How many people in this country do you think could effectively solve their financial issues with $1000?  IMO: very few.  $1000 represents relief from some payments for a month (maybe more, but not much).  Giving away cash does not solve problems... it simply treats symptoms.  Personal financial issues result from both lack of resources, and ineffective deployment of resources.  Effective deployment of financial resources requires both intelligence and discipline... in many cases these are things that are difficult to teach.  Giving away $1000 teaches nothing...

Throwing more money at people's financial problems will only make them bigger.  By giving away a bunch of money, we would see a short term jolt to misleading economic metrics... this in my opinion would solve very few problems.

mattchuck2 wrote

5. Eliminate the cap on earnings taxed by Social Security. Right now, most of the middle class pays Social Security taxes on 100% of their income, where people like Romney and Trump pay Social Security tax on maybe 5% of their income. This is unfair. The people at the top should have just as much income subject to taxation as the people at the bottom. Use this money to sure up Social Security financing for the next 75 years (and maybe offer increased payouts if the math works out and shit hits the fan with our shaky 401k system).

I totally agree with this... the cap makes it regressive.

With the removal of the cap, I would like the option to forfeit my Social Security benefit, for the option of a tax free distribution on a portion my personal retirement assets.

Smart savers should not need Social Security... if you do not use the entitlement, you should get a benefit on the other end (i.e. more favorable tax treatment)

I think Napa is spot on with his take on SS and on a cash give away..The majority of my employees make between 10-15 /hr..

Come tax refund time, everyone has new sneakers or upgraded cell phones....


peace and love

JasonWx wrote

I think Napa is spot on with his take on SS and on a cash give away..The majority of my employees make between 10-15 /hr..

Come tax refund time, everyone has new sneakers or upgraded cell phones....


peace and love

Yeah, that's kind of the point. People spend money and buy stuff, creating better opportunities for the businesses that sell them that stuff, and the people who manufacture that stuff. Yeah, it'd be better if everyone shopped at local businesses and bought goods that were made in America, but that 's not the world we live in.

Not a lot of people realize that half of Obama's stimulus 7 years ago was a money drop that did exactly what I'm talking about (except it was only for wage earners, not every American - retirees, kids, etc. - like I'm talking about).

The problem with the economy (and the resulting problems in slow GDP growth and wages) is that people don't have money to buy things. The solution is simple: give people money to buy things. Doesn't matter what those things are.

Edit to add link from "The Economist", not really a liberal rag: http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2014/11/reviving-economy

nepa wrote

With the removal of the cap, I would like the option to forfeit my Social Security benefit, for the option of a tax free distribution on a portion my personal retirement assets.

Smart savers should not need Social Security... if you do not use the entitlement, you should get a benefit on the other end (i.e. more favorable tax treatment)

There are already many ways to save money with favorable tax schemes. You can bank up to $48,000 a year in tax deferred savings if you own your own business.

But sure, if you want a lump sum from social security, you can have it when you reach full Social Security retirement age: 67.

mattchuck2 wrote

nepa wrote

With the removal of the cap, I would like the option to forfeit my Social Security benefit, for the option of a tax free distribution on a portion my personal retirement assets.

Smart savers should not need Social Security... if you do not use the entitlement, you should get a benefit on the other end (i.e. more favorable tax treatment)

There are already many ways to save money with favorable tax schemes. You can bank up to $48,000 a year in tax deferred savings if you own your own business.

But sure, if you want a lump sum from social security, you can have it when you reach full Social Security retirement age: 67.

Not saying I want a lump sum... I'm saying I want to forfeit my benefit entirely because I will not need it... I'm a smart saver.  

mattchuck2 wrote

Not a lot of people realize that half of Obama's stimulus 7 years ago was a money drop that did exactly what I'm talking about (except it was only for wage earners, not every American - retirees, kids, etc. - like I'm talking about).

Your boy GW did the same thing with EGGTRA back in 2000... everybody got between $300 and $600.  What more does this "free cash" do other than promote short term consumption?  IMO: Fixing our economy requires much more than just more consumption.  In addition... what does promoting consumption do to fix personal financial problems?

nepa wrote

  $1000 represents relief from some payments for a month (maybe more, but not much).  Giving away cash does not solve problems... it simply treats symptoms.  Personal financial issues result from both lack of resources, and ineffective deployment of resources.  Effective deployment of financial resources requires both intelligence and discipline... in many cases these are things that are difficult to teach.  Giving away $1000 teaches nothing...

First of all, I would love to live in your world where $1000 is basically nothing and 80mg is a good starting level for cannabis edibles.

Second of all, yeah, you're probably right that a lot of people would spend the $1000. As I said above, that's the point.

And, since this is a thread on what, specifically, you'd like to see in this country, please articulate a plan for dealing with the other part of your post (which I think is important, too), how do we increase financial education in this country so that we can convince people to pay off their debts and save more money? I know some people who have these problems. How do you convince them that they're doing it wrong and you're right? Because in my experience, it's like talking to a brick wall.

mattchuck2 wrote

First of all, I would love to live in your world where $1000 is basically nothing and 80mg is a good starting level for cannabis edibles.

MC... you're welcome at my house anytime... I'm sure you could handle 80mg... IMO: the published edible dosage standards are just conservative fear mongering.  

Not saying the $1000 is nothing (your words not mine)... I am saying that within the context of total monthly expenses for an average household, it will not go very far.

Can't support the money drop idea. That's a "give a man a fish" plan. Only productive in the short term. I would rather see it be more a work fair plan. You want $1000, here's a low skill job that needs doing, spend 60 hours doing it and will give you $1000 tax free. The people who don't need won't take.

nepa wrote

Not saying I want a lump sum... I'm saying I want to forfeit my benefit entirely because I will not need it... I'm a smart saver.

Right, but you realize that you're making 2 conflicting arguments here, right?

1. American people are stupid and they would "squander" any money that they are given, which is bad
2. People should be able to raid their social security accounts for money

Seems that you should argue for either one or the other, but not both.

I agree that people are generally going to spend the money that they are given, I view it as a feature, not a bug. But, I recognize, human nature being what it is, it's hard to get certain people to voluntarily save money, so some kind of forced retirement savings is necessary (as well as forced medical insurance because people don't save for medical expenses either).

PeeTex wrote

Can't support the money drop idea. That's a "give a man a fish" plan. Only productive in the short term. I would rather see it be more a work fair plan. You want $1000, here's a low skill job that needs doing, spend 60 hours doing it and will give you $1000 tax free. The people who don't need won't take.

That's what I laid out in the other parts of my plan: the CCC type scheme and the infrastructure improvements.

But I think the $1,000 would be very welcome for a lot of the population, and would help a lot of people - people who could use the help in paying off a credit card, putting a little more money towards their student loan, or hell, putting a down payment on an investment property.

Sometimes the government should just try to do a good thing for people - giving them back some money instead of taking it every two weeks.

mattchuck2 wrote

And, since this is a thread on what, specifically, you'd like to see in this country, please articulate a plan for dealing with the other part of your post (which I think is important, too), how do we increase financial education in this country so that we can convince people to pay off their debts and save more money? I know some people who have these problems. How do you convince them that they're doing it wrong and you're right? Because in my experience, it's like talking to a brick wall.

I think that's a great point. Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer.

My financial sense comes from my upbringing.  Ironically, my mom is Jewish, and she is horrible with money.... so she let my dad teach us about finances... My dad was the CFO of a mid sized insurance company at the close of the 20th century.  He taught us at a young age the value of financial discipline and independence.  It stuck with me.

Undoubtedly, with the intensity of today's marketing schemes, it's an uphill battle.  My best advice for developing a disciplined spending strategy:  Stop watching TV, and limit internet browsing.  TV and Internet are the biggest stimulators of consumption out there... Stimulated consumption = undisciplined spending.  Undisciplined spending = financial problems.