The War on Terrorism

84 dead in France due to a cowardly terrorist attack. President Obama condemns the attack, which is great and all, but when is it time to stop it?? Who draws the line in the sand and says, okay enough is enough with this! It's time to stop this Islamic Terrorism. We just had 49 people killed in FL due to domestic terrorism with some connection to Islamic State.

Some say this is the new norm, that terrorism should be accepted. Some will say there will be needless killing of innocent people if we take them out.

This infuriates me. These fuckers are cowards and need to be take out. Who the hell drives a truck into a crowd at full speed with the sole intent to kill. It's time to take care of this. We need our world leaders to come together and handle the situation swiftly and effectively. If not who knows what will happen. On the news this morning they were interviewing a m,an from France. He said, "France just isn't safe anymore". How long before the US isn't safe from these cowards anymore??? Will it be our generation? Our kids generation? Our grand kids generation?

How do you stop this?

Do you want spike strips on every sidewalk? Do you want every vehicle to be equipped with OnStar, so the government can shut cars down whenever they want?

You're going to have to accept that, in a free society, fucked up people are going to do fucked up shit. And it's not the fault of whatever crazy ideology they're associated with, whether Muslim extremism, white nationalism (like Dylan Roof), or Right wing extremism (like Timothy McVeigh). It's the fault of those specific assholes (and the media who is happy to satisfy assholes' desires to be famous).

The only thing we can do is make it harder for assholes to do asshole things. That's why we all have to take our shoes off at the airport and why we have passed sensible national gun legislation so it's hard for assholes to get their hands on weapons that can kill a lot of people at one time.

Oh wait, I'm being told that second thing didn't happen.

I don't know how you stop it, that's why I suggested our World Leaders get together and have a talk. My guess is people there would be better at making those decisions than you or I. You know like people who specialize in wars??? We may not be there yet but this thing will turn into a full blown war no matter what. IMO it's only a matter of time.


You always bring up guns. How in the HELL will more gun laws stop a bad guy??? There's no way. A bad guy will always get what he wants. All a lock does is keep an honest man honest, a thief will always get what he wants. Make sense?? All more gun control will due is make it harder for the law abiding citizen to enjoy them.


And NO Matt, I WILL NOT accept terrorism as the norm. NEVER!! It's fine if you do but please don't tell me or others that we have to. After all this is America and we can all choose to believe or say what we want. Or at least we used to be able to until we started worrying about offending people.

campgottagopee wrote

You always bring up guns. How in the HELL will more gun laws stop a bad guy??? There's no way. A bad guy will always get what he wants. All a lock does is keep an honest man honest, a thief will always get what he wants. Make sense??

No. It doesn't make sense at all. If your position is "laws don't matter, bad guys will do whatever they want", then you have to explain why we have any laws at all. Why is there a law against murder if the prohibition of murder only serves to "keep an honest man honest"?

And NO Matt, I WILL NOT accept terrorism as the norm. NEVER!! It's fine if you do but please don't tell me or others that we have to. After all this is America and we can all choose to believe or say what we want. Or at least we used to be able to until we started worrying about offending people.

I'm just saying, there was terrorism just as long as there have been people:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

You can't prevent assholes from doing asshole things. If you or I snapped, and decided to kill a bunch of innocent people today, either of us could do it very easily. It'd be even easier for you, because you have a cache of weapons and ammo. But I could do it, too, using a car like that guy in France. At a certain point, we have to trust the people of society to be able to exist with their freedoms. If we want the freedom to own weapons and the freedom to drive cars, we have to accept that people are going to use these things to cause harm to others. The alternative is a police state, where everybody's actions are monitored and policed by the government. Are you calling for that?

Calling for a war is dumb. Who are you attacking? Will there be boots on the ground? How many civilian casualties are you expecting? How many new enemies will be created from those casualties?

We already have gun laws, Matt. That's what I'm saying.

You just watch there will be a war. The US may not be initially involved but I'm guessing we will be at some point. We can't stand by at just watch this happen. It's not right.

campgottagopee wrote

We already have gun laws, Matt. That's what I'm saying.

But yet maniacs like the San Bernadino killer and the Orlando killer and the Dallas killer (and the Newtown killer, and the D.C. Sniper, and the Columbine killers, etc., etc., etc.) were easily able to get their hands on weapons. Maybe the problem is we don't have the right gun laws.

You just watch there will be a war. The US may not be initially involved but I'm guessing we will be at some point. We can't stand by at just watch this happen. It's not right.

Watch what happen? The increasingly smaller amount of terrorism deaths?



Or the vanishingly small amount of people that global terrorism actually kills:




The media is hyping these events to create a narrative. Don't fall victim to their bullshit.

Camp,

It seems like the outcome of the wars is more bombs dropped, more terrorists created. It's good money after bad. @ declared war on terrorism 9/12, and this has to have been as effective as the drug war.

Not to mention that we have had domestic people radicalized here, christians, muslims, disaffected black people. France has the same issues. In some ways this a volatile time and a peaceful time at once. I don't think there's an easy solution to get to the next step. But admitting that is still not "accepting it". I think security groups need to work together stronger than ever. Britain needs to stay in the EU to prevent state sponsored terrorism emanating from Russia.

I'm not going to ask you for answers but I do ask you to resist the urge to reach out and punish "someone", because we will most likely get the wrong people.

I don't even think it's a volatile time. I think it is a peaceful time with a very, very, very small number of people (relative to world population) who want to do harm to others.

I also think that the media amplifies and encourages this very small number of people to fall in with evil groups, who persuade them to do evil things, which helps the media because hey, now there's another terrorist attack to hype.

I also think that people are fearful and their fear is valid to the extent that they feel the emotion. But then craven politicians play on this fear to gain power. When it becomes a contest of "I'm scared, who can protect me?", certain candidates try to outdo eachother with wildly over-the-top "solutions" (Muslim ban, making the sand "glow", etc.). This only serves to perpetuate the fear and unrest, which allows the people proposing those solutions to take the cash out of your wallet while you're not looking.

Someday, not sure when, but this will hit closer to home, some may change their minds and some may not.  

I agree ML our leaders need to get this figured out. Don't worry about me I'm not looking to punish anyone , and I certainly don't have the answers. That's why I said we need our people who handle this to get together and get shit figured out before this hits home. To just sit by and condemn the actions isn't enough imo. Action needs to be taken at the highest level before it does hit home.

campgottagopee wrote

I don't know how you stop it, that's why I suggested our World Leaders get together and have a talk. My guess is people there would be better at making those decisions than you or I. You know like people who specialize in wars??? We may not be there yet but this thing will turn into a full blown war no matter what. IMO it's only a matter of time.

The wisdom (?) of wars as has been waged in the past has no application to what is going on in our world today. Terrorism has spread to every corner of the world. The enemy no longer wears a uniform that makes their identification easy. People clamor for governments to do everything possible to stop terrorism, but then two breaths later bitch and moan about government interference with our liberties.

Even when there are successes in the war in terror, such as when Bin Laden was croaked or the report a day or two ago about  the U.S. drone strike in Afghanistan that killed the a-hole mastermind behind the 2014 attack on a military-run school in Pakistan that killed 130+ kids, there are other people with such rage against Western culture waiting to step into their place to coordinate the next unfathomable attack. It's not like some cowboy in a white hat can just ride in an obliterate some corner of the world and it's all going to stop. Just the contrary has been the case in the last generation or two-the more "we" try to go after "them", the more "they" become enraged at "us" and thousands and thousands more people die.

Until we are able to first understand what makes some people think that ending the lives of other people accomplishes a goal, and then have the ability to change that way of thinking, we're just spitting into the wind as we try to stop terrorism. Violence breeds violence.

campgottagopee wrote

Someday, not sure when, but this will hit closer to home, some may change their minds and some may not.  

I mean, the GOP strongholds that are always bloodlusting to "turn the desert into glass" certainly won't be. Or at least, if a terrorist has the choice between a Times Square or Mobile, Alabama I think they'd choose nyc. But on the other hand maybe things have changed, these lone wolf types seem to just blow up their hometowns wherever they are, orlando, etc.

In terms of getting closer to home, seeing the smoke from the WTC every day for months was pretty close but I still feel the way I do.

Thank you for a great post.

If more people who read these threads, but don't talk that much, would speak out, I would appreciate it.

And with that, I'll let everyone else have the floor for a while. Gotta go get some shit done.

DrSkimeister wrote

campgottagopee wrote

I don't know how you stop it, that's why I suggested our World Leaders get together and have a talk. My guess is people there would be better at making those decisions than you or I. You know like people who specialize in wars??? We may not be there yet but this thing will turn into a full blown war no matter what. IMO it's only a matter of time.

The wisdom (?) of wars as has been waged in the past has no application to what is going on in our world today. Terrorism has spread to every corner of the world. The enemy no longer wears a uniform that makes their identification easy. People clamor for governments to do everything possible to stop terrorism, but then two breaths later bitch and moan about government interference with our liberties.

Even when there are successes in the war in terror, such as when Bin Laden was croaked or the report a day or two ago about  the U.S. drone strike in Afghanistan that killed the a-hole mastermind behind the 2014 attack on a military-run school in Pakistan that killed 130+ kids, there are other people with such rage against Western culture waiting to step into their place to coordinate the next unfathomable attack. It's not like some cowboy in a white hat can just ride in an obliterate some corner of the world and it's all going to stop. Just the contrary has been the case in the last generation or two-the more "we" try to go after "them", the more "they" become enraged at "us" and thousands and thousands more people die.

Until we are able to first understand what makes some people think that ending the lives of other people accomplishes a goal, and then have the ability to change that way of thinking, we're just spitting into the wind as we try to stop terrorism. Violence breeds violence.

You make sense Doc. Your message is clear. There certainly is no easy or even good answer to the problem terrorism brings to the world.
 I guess maybe terrorism is the new norm?!?!? I guess every time we get on a plane we need to look around for anyone suspicious. I guess whenever we're in a big crowd we need to be mindful that a box truck can come barreling through at any moment and kill us. I guess whenever our kids go to school we need to be aware that a sniper could take aim at them.

Man what a time we live in.

ml242 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Someday, not sure when, but this will hit closer to home, some may change their minds and some may not.  

I mean, the GOP strongholds that are always bloodlusting to "turn the desert into glass" certainly won't be. Or at least, if a terrorist has the choice between a Times Square or Mobile, Alabama I think they'd choose nyc. But on the other hand maybe things have changed, these lone wolf types seem to just blow up their hometowns wherever they are, orlando, etc.

In terms of getting closer to home, seeing the smoke from the WTC every day for months was pretty close but I still feel the way I do.

Damn, ML, didn't realize you were in NYC when that all went down. Shit bro, that is awful!!! That had to be a scary time. I'll never forget that day as long as I live.

I like reading your POV on this ML. Different people and points of view is what makes the world go around. Somewhere there needs to be a middle ground.

Fact is the enemy is amorphous , ambiguous , mobile yet surreptitious and not easily flushed via conventional means .

Pesonally abhor the notion of war and the futility of the last several decades of actually waging war against unconventional enemies , that has resulted in both more new enemies using even more unconventional tactics like terrorism AND has lined the pockets of the military industrial complex and their congressional minions while blowing the crap out of the national debt and NEVER achieving what may be called VICTORY .

So while id like to get these bastards as much as the next guy , to a certain degree they win when we act out of fear or overreact . Yeah we ARE th new Israel. terrorism is a reality and will most. Likely be around as the new normal . What we can do is remain vigilant , use covert actions ,and provide assistance both technical and to specific targeted allies who need economic development assistance or aid or humanitarian efforts to both bootstrap themselves and capture their hearts

Frustrating , you bet !!! But this is the new normal and THAT genie ain't going back in the bottle . The problems of that region of the world are a Gordian knot .   HAving done programs for educated people from that region i. Have seen the conflict between SUNNI and SHIITE up close and personal . It is irrational , violent and THESE were PROFESSIONALS

Ugh

I, unfortunately, think your right Warp as well as Matt too. After reading peoples comments I now realize that terrorism isn't going anywhere too soon. That it certainly will be around forever in one shape or form. I realize that we need to be more and more mindful of what's going on around us, because as ML pointed out these lone wolf incidents will be popping up and become the norm as well.

So how do you draw the line? What freedoms are you willing to give up in order to find these people before they accomplish their individual missions? Checkpoints everywhere? How about a TSA checkpoint at every corner? How about we report suspicious behavior exhibited by our neighbors? What security measures cannot be foiled by corruption in some form or another?
Not to sound hopeless, but as long as there are people who are not rational, who have very little to live for, can see the wealth, food, shelter, safety, and leisure that some of us have, we're going to have "terrorism". It's not based on religion, it's based on basic needs not being met--somebody always has more than you, somebody will always be jealous, possibly driven to action by the obvious injustice of it all. I doubt you can solve that one. I think the best you can do is be grateful for what you have, be kind to as many people as you can, turn off the 24-hour news/2-minute hate/outrage machine, and recognize that you're not getting out of here alive, whether by violence or old age (aim for old age!) so you'd better enjoy it if you can.

warp daddy wrote

the enemy

The enemy is hate.

I don't see anyway that bombing will end it.

campgottagopee wrote

Man what a time we live in.

Stop being a drama queen.  Anyone busting down your door and sending you to a concentration camp to get burned into ash which is shifted through for your gold fillings?  Anyone riding horses through your village and stomping your infants brains out with the butt of their rifle cause the general said save your bullets for the warriors????

And we have this!!  http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/07/massive-homemade-slide-goes-off-without-a-hitch-just-kidding-complete-disaster-ensues

No man. You guys don't get it. I truly feel bad for people. Terrorism is a touchy subject for me. I despise the fact that people get killed senselessly, and I've never liked the helpless feeling that it brings. Some may say I'm a control freak ... lol

Some call it drama, I call it sensitive  

Anyway, I personally have it good. I have zero complaints in my life. Hell, I'm throwing a party at my  house tomorrow that is going to rage!!!  Can't wait