Threat of Short-term Rentals to mountain towns

Spock
You got all wrong.  I’m fine with the police presence we currently have.  It’s Cunning that is demanding more cops which would cost tax $s.

I just want effective enforcement of existing zoning regulations ie STRs are a business and should only be in areas zoned for businesses.  Failing that enforcement we need rules regulated what amounts to a hotel being run in rural residential areas that don’t have the support staffing and infrastructure to support them.  

Frankly this is a local issue and you downstaters really don’t get the issue nor have any say in the matter.  

Z wrote

Spock
You got all wrong.  I’m fine with the police presence we currently have.  It’s Cunning that I demanding more cops which would cost tax $s.

I just want effective enforcement of existing zoning regulations ie STRs are a business and should only be in areas zoned for businesses.  Failing that enforcement we need rules regulated what amounts to a hotel being run in rural residential areas that don’t have the support staffing and infrastructure to support them.  

Frankly this is a local issue and you downstaters really don’t get the issue nor have any say in the matter.

Z - who's going to enforce your zoning laws?  What will the penalty be?


You keep saying we don't have a say but I've been holding this card for a long time:  this isn't new.  I mentioned my family had a camp in the Adirondacks earlier, but you ignored it.  At any rate, it was on a lake surrounded by a lot of other camps.  People have been renting those places out for as long as I've been alive.  There were sometimes quiet renters, sometimes there were loud parties.  You know who dealt with those issues?  All this was before the internet was even mainstream and people would rent those places out booked solid if they wanted.

zoning laws are enforced by local code enforcement officers.  not the police.

Southern Tier wrote

zoning laws are enforced by local code enforcement officers.  not the police.

It was a facetious question.  How are they going to know?  Are they going to check the websites and patrol the hamlets to find out who's renting?

And what about all the people that have done this long before the internet and have never caused a problem?

what?  generally they "know" when someone complains.  stop posting about this.  nothing you say makes any sense.

Southern Tier wrote

what?  generally they "know" when someone complains.  stop posting about this.  nothing you say makes any sense.

So it's going to be OK to do unless someone complains?

Then you punish the owner of the property and not the person actually causing the disturbance?

I'm awaiting your great sense ST.  Been waiting for you to come back BTW.

Z - I hope you aren't taking this personal.  I just think you are attacking the wrong people with this.

Z wrote

Spock
You got all wrong.  I’m fine with the police presence we currently have.  It’s Cunning that is demanding more cops which would cost tax $s.

I just want effective enforcement of existing zoning regulations ie STRs are a business and should only be in areas zoned for businesses.  Failing that enforcement we need rules regulated what amounts to a hotel being run in rural residential areas that don’t have the support staffing and infrastructure to support them.  

Frankly this is a local issue and you downstaters really don’t get the issue nor have any say in the matter.

OK, I gotcha now.

That's gonna be a tough one, Coach. I can't see how anyone will enforce zoning on a house the same they do on hotels. I mean houses owned by an individual aren't hotels, right?

Are people proposing trying to lomit the number of times a owner can rent out their property?

https://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/37665/20181219/tri-lakes-takes-how-airbnb-is-transforming-tourism-lodging-in-the-adirondacks?platform=hootsuite

There are 44 rentals available in Virgil

having 10 times that in LP would make sense --- it's a tourist area

Cunningstunts wrote

So it's going to be OK to do unless someone complains?

Then you punish the owner of the property and not the person actually causing the disturbance?

Yup.

If no one complains, what's the problem? Do you want cops or building inspectors or social workers going to everyone's house checking for bad behavior?  If there is the problem, it's on the owner to solve it, not the neighbors and not the police. Plenty of landlords get premium rents from big groups that they are pretty sure will cause problems. It's been happening in beach towns since I was in college, and probably before.

This is just one more disruption caused by information technology.  VRBO, AirBNB, Uber and a dozen other sites have caused disruptions in stable businesses that need too be dealt with.  IT's really no different than Waze sending rush hour traffic down your quiet street.  Homeowners have every right to stop that crap. The losers in LP are gonna be the absentee landlords who thought STR money would cover big mortgages.

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

Cunningstunts wrote

So it's going to be OK to do unless someone complains?

Then you punish the owner of the property and not the person actually causing the disturbance?

Yup.

If no one complains, what's the problem? Do you want cops or building inspectors or social workers going to everyone's house checking for bad behavior?  If there is the problem, it's on the owner to solve it, not the neighbors and not the police. Plenty of landlords get premium rents from big groups that they are pretty sure will cause problems. It's been happening in beach towns since I was in college, and probably before.

This is just one more disruption caused by information technology.  VRBO, AirBNB, Uber and a dozen other sites have caused disruptions in stable businesses that need too be dealt with.  IT's really no different than Waze sending rush hour traffic down your quiet street.  Homeowners have every right to stop that crap. The losers in LP are gonna be the absentee landlords who thought STR money would cover big mortgages.

mm

So please clarify for me, what is the problem?  Is it the disruption to locals or is it the destabilization of the hotel industry?  Because you aren't going to fix both with the proposed changes.

Also I really don't buy your argument about Waze.  It's a public road.  If people choose to use some IT to find an alternate route, they are by all means entitled to use the roads they pay for.  If it's a private drive, that's a different story.

And MM - again, you're are attacking the technology of IT, which is just showing us a problem that has previously existed.   Congestion.  Too many cars on the road.

In this example, you are attacking the IT and not the problem that previously existed.  These towns have no law enforcement.  

This ain't the wild west...

Cunningstunts wrote

And MM - again, you're are attacking the technology of IT, which is just showing us a problem that has previously existed.   Congestion.  Too many cars on the road.

In this example, you are attacking the IT and not the problem that previously existed.  These towns have no law enforcement.  

This ain't the wild west...

I'm attacking the unintended consequences of IT, some of which are to cause congestion where none existed or rowdy STRs that destabilize previously quiet neighborhoods. Force the owners to deal directly with the problems caused by STRs and the problem goes away.

Your solution is send more cops.  The end game of that is a police state.

FWIW the wild west had a lot going for it.

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

I'm attacking the unintended consequences of IT, some of which are to cause congestion where none existed or rowdy STR parties in previously quiet neighborhoods. Force the owners to deal directly with the problems caused by STRs and the problem goes away.

Your solution is send more cops.  The end game of that is a police state.

FWIW the wild west had a lot going for it.

mm

Not really.  I'm just using my knowledge that these STRs exist in vast numbers in other areas where there are police to deal with these type of disturbances.

Do you call the landlord when there's a disturbance in a long term rental?  Not in my experience.  Also if it was a real dispute with guns and knives you'd be stupid as the landlord to get involved.

Yeah it sucks some people got some more traffic on an otherwise quiet road, but how did you feel for the property owners who had cities and states put giant super highways in their backyard?  I bet they didn't love that either.  Technology causes changes for better or worse.  It just seems some people want to cry bloody murder when a slightly negative thing affects them which previously only affected people they didn't care about.

Cunningstunts wrote

So please clarify for me, what is the problem?  Is it the disruption to locals or is it the destabilization of the hotel industry?  Because you aren't going to fix both with the proposed changes.

You'll have to ask LP residents what the STR problem is, but I'm pretty sure taking all the profit out of STRs, and/or generally making it a PITA for absentee landlords would solve both the neighbors' problems and the hotel business disruption. In any event, there's a clear public interest in maintaining stable neighborhoods.  OTOH hotel owners in tourist towns usually have more influence on local government than most residents, so they will usually get what they want.

Cunningstunts wrote

Also I really don't buy your argument about Waze.  It's a public road.  If people choose to use some IT to find an alternate route, they are by all means entitled to use the roads they pay for.  If it's a private drive, that's a different story.

Through traffic is forbidden in lots of neighborhoods, and it's not controversial at all.  (Before GPS, a "no thru traffic" sign was a sure bet to bring you back to civilization when you were lost.) When Waze sends so much traffic down your street that you can't get out of your own driveway, you will agree with me.

mm

Cunningstunts wrote

Not really.  I'm just using my knowledge that these STRs exist in vast numbers in other areas where there are police to deal with these type of disturbances.

In some neighborhoods, STR disturbances are manageable by cops, in others they need new rules to make the problems manageable. It's usually better to deal with problems by changing the incentives rather than by sending guys with guns.

Cunningstunts wrote

Do you call the landlord when there's a disturbance in a long term rental?  Not in my experience.  Also if it was a real dispute with guns and knives you'd be stupid as the landlord to get involved.

I call the cops if it's a dangerous disturbance, or the city if it's a long term nuisance. Worst case I call my lawyer and I sue the landlord. Problem solved.

Cunningstunts wrote

Yeah it sucks some people got some more traffic on an otherwise quiet road, but how did you feel for the property owners who had cities and states put giant super highways in their backyard?  I bet they didn't love that either.  Technology causes changes for better or worse.  It just seems some people want to cry bloody murder when a slightly negative thing affects them which previously only affected people they didn't care about.

Roads are built only after a public process to consider the adverse impacts and develop the best solution. GPS randomly sends large volumes of traffic unto streets that were never designed for that. Cities like Los Angeles are responding by prohibiting through traffic and making more one way streets.  What's wrong with residents keeping their neighborhood pleasant and quiet?

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

You'll have to ask LP residents what the STR problem is, but I'm pretty sure taking all the profit out of STRs, and/or generally making it a PITA for absentee landlords would solve both the neighbors' problems and the hotel business disruption. In any event, there's a clear public interest in maintaining stable neighborhoods.  OTOH hotel owners in tourist towns usually have more influence on local government than most residents, so they will usually get what they want.

I'm not sure how they can take all the profit out.  I'm not sure how they can do anything but address problem instances.  Any of the other ones, as you admitted previously, would be free to continue to operate, even if illegal.

Should we scrub these sites from the internet and move them to the dark web?

I pointed this out, as did you, as did others.  STRs have been going on long, long before the internet.  Even in the blue line.  The internet just happened to publicize it a bit more and make it a bit more mainstream.  Of course they compete with hotels, but if you look, they are not any more affordable.  Most are more expensive than hotel lodging.  Obviously they are just bringing something different to the market.

I'm just giving the opinion that legislating the shit out an issue doesn't usually fix it.  And most people welcome (at least on paper) competition in markets.

Milo Maltbie wrote

Through traffic is forbidden in lots of neighborhoods, and it's not controversial at all.  (Before GPS, a "no thru traffic" sign was a sure bet to bring you back to civilization when you were lost.) When Waze sends so much traffic down your street that you can't get out of your own driveway, you will agree with me.

mm

Again, an issue for towns to fix.  If these are small, town maintained roads, then PERHAPS they have the right to restrict usage.  Perhaps they need to coordinate with the developers of programs and put the signs back up so they can properly re-route traffic.

Any county or state road would be off the table to restrictions I believe.

Oh yeah it did,  people knew to keep their mouth shut back then.  They either made it or they didn't.  

Milo Maltbie wrote

In some neighborhoods, STR disturbances are manageable by cops, in others they need new rules to make the problems manageable. It's usually better to deal with problems by changing the incentives rather than by sending guys with guns.

How are they manageable by the cops if there are no cops.  Have you been following along with Z's arguments?

I'm not against rules that can be used to protect peoples rights, but as I see it, the owners of these properties have some rights too.

Also, isn't it better for these tourist economies to have these houses filled instead of just sitting vacant for the cottager to come up a few weeks or months out of the year?

Milo Maltbie wrote

Roads are built only after a public process to consider the adverse impacts and develop the best solution. GPS randomly sends large volumes of traffic unto streets that were never designed for that. Cities like Los Angeles are responding by prohibiting through traffic and making more one way streets.  What's wrong with residents keeping their neighborhood pleasant and quiet?

mm

Sure - roads are engineered.  But that wasn't my point.  I'm not sure you would be happy about what would happen to your property value if they put an expressway through your back yard.

I get the point though.  I think the issue can easily be addressed by local governments without infringing on the other rights of citizens (see my other response).