Tiny Houses

Milo Maltbie wrote

500 watt stereo, arc welder, 3D printer, Wintersteiger

This thread delivers. Wintersteiger?

Harvey wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

500 watt stereo, arc welder, 3D printer, Wintersteiger

This thread delivers. Wintersteiger?

My neighbor works as rep for Wintersteiger.  They produce industrial strength ski repair/tuning equiptment.

Milo Maltbie wrote

  invisible fence,  

MM

Fan of the invisible fence myself

MikeK wrote

Yeah, that's one way to do it I guess.  Initial investment is the key word there.  Also I would ideally like to have a very small utility bill.  None would be better, but how many solar cells does that take?  And what do you do when it rains for a week or they are buried under 4' of snow?  I could probably deal with brushing a couple of them off, but I'd rather just use less electricity.

Cold would still be on a pump as well, you'd want to be able to mix that, but for just getting a drink, putting water on the stove to boil or rinsing something off a hand pump works just fine and always gets you water, although if you do have an electric hookup I suppose, that's your backup.

For me, whether I have an electric hookup or not would depend on my land, and whether or not it was easy to get.  Some places it would cost a fortune, so I'd just go with a generator for backup and use solar as the main.  If it was easy to get I'd probably just hook it up and use it as backup.

Wood heat is pretty renewable.  If the entire world population starts burning wood again it won't be.  But a few other hillbillies and I aren't going to burn down the entire eastern forests.

Also this may sound crazy, but I'm thinking of trying to live on less than 30k a year for two people.  That's food, taxes, transport, energy... everything.  I'm blowing through 3.5 times that now.  It's a big change.  Things need to be drastic.  It's also min 10 years away.

First - here is a site for a solar house in Maine. It works in the winter.
http://www.solarhouse.com/
Second - Head to the Southern US if you want to live on less than 30k for 2 people.

To both responses:  I like a challenge

Plus... that house is HUGE.

x10003q wrote

First - here is a site for a solar house in Maine. It works in the winter.
http://www.solarhouse.com/
Second - Head to the Southern US if you want to live on less than 30k for 2 people.

That house makes maybe 4000 kWh all year, mostly in the summer.  That's enough to run your lights and a refrigerator, maybe a well pump, but it's completely unreliable.  To run off the grid, you'll need nearly a month worth of battery storage to run on it all winter, and maybe more.  Even then, maybe it goes low voltage for a couple of hours while you're away and it smokes all your pump motors.
Hook it up to the grid, and it reduces your annual bill somewhere between $400 and $600 every year. Solar has more value on the grid than off it.  Electricity is not really a DIY project.

MM  

Harvey wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

500 watt stereo, arc welder, 3D printer, Wintersteiger

This thread delivers. Wintersteiger?

I was really just kidding about that.

I had to sell my Wintersteiger when I moved to a small apartment a few years ago.

MM

Milo Maltbie wrote

Hook it up to the grid, and it reduces your annual bill somewhere between $400 and $600 every year. Solar has more value on the grid than off it.  Electricity is not really a DIY project.

MM

I actually agree with you there.  It's hard to dispute that the grid is a more efficient, reliable system, and cheaper as well.

I still do think solar can make sense for a small cabin, full time if you are willing to give up some stuff... 500W amp first and foremost (unless you want to host small music festivals).

I did some accounting yesterday.  It really isn't that bad.  Say you want a fridge, freezer, a few low power lights, water pressure pump and possibly a recirc pump for a hot water system.  It's completely doable with batteries and solar.  It's rather expensive because to make it efficient you need to buy specialized systems, but that then becomes 'free' for the foreseeable future.  For a person like myself, I'd rather spend the money up front and not have to pay in the future, but that's how I operate.  And I also would budget some money for failure or repairs, as not all of this stuff lasts forever.

I also did some looking into the secondary heating.  Geothermal heat pumps are expensive systems, and might not be a good idea to run off of solar and batteries.  I did find some info that stated they work OK as a base system like I said because you don't use a lot of energy (or any if your woodstove is going) to keep the house at a moderate temp should you be away.

I think the cheaper option is propane, but then you wonder why you use solar over propane power lights and refrigeration.  I think it comes down to future payments, convenience, and whether or not you are trying to get away from fossil fuels.  I can't see being completely away from FF in the foreseeable future, it influences way too many things we use, but using it as a backup heating source during the winter might be the only affordable solution.   Propane makes a lot more sense a hot water heater as well.  From what I can tell the solar tanks are unreliable to put it nicely and you may not always have a good source of hot water.  To use an electric heater or heat pump would be far more electricity than I'd want to get from batteries and solar.

IMO it just makes sense to use the grid since (or if) it is already there.  Countries that have no grid may be a different story. People who live in those countries have lower electricity "need" levels too.

We looked at going off the grid at HQ. We went for 5 years without any electricity or water, but when Zelda was with child, I knew that without utilities skiing would be seriously reduced.

I wasn't thinking solar as we'd have to cut a lot of trees to make it worth anything. I was looking at a FF burning Honda 3000W genie.  When it came down to it the gen wasn't cheaper to install, required hauling a lot of gas, couldn't safely operate the water pump and would be noisy.

We dug a 500 foot trench and dropped a massive feedwire in ($2 a foot?) so that we wouldn't need a transformer and storms wouldn't take out our power. I'm glad we went that way.

You know, I'm most likely going to start with grid if it's available, but I'd like to design to be able to get rid of it in the future.

The tree cutting thing is one thing I've thought about in the Adirondacks.  You gotta clear a lot of land for sun to get to your panels, and then make sure a tree doesn't fall on them or your house in a storm.

The grid is good... and in the Adirondacks it makes a lot of sense in most cases because it's there.  There are some places it's not, in which case I'd consider the alternatives.

When I first thought about building a place in ADKs about 5 years ago, I had thought I'd try to do grid and propane with wood heat as the main.  As I started to research and look at land, I found a lot more places without electric access, and I started to think about the alternatives.

Because my idea was for the place to be a part time second home for a while, I thought I could deal without electric as long as I had a well.  My initial idea there was to have the well drilled and build the house right over the well with a freeze-proof hand pump coming right into the house.  With a full basement that might be easier, but I still think it would freeze so I'd probably stay the course.

The idea was always to use a grey water catch and compost toilet (no septic) but seen as how composters don't work well unless you have heat, I figured I'd design the capability in and start with a good 'old fashion out house.  Not the most comfortable in the winter, but for weekends it's fine.

Eventually I'd add in electric via solar until it was livable.  The issue is I don't want to pay to keep the pipes from freezing unless I'm there year round, so I wouldn't put that capability in until I made the move.  Ideally that would be when I stop working, or am working only part time.

I dunno - my thoughts change year to year, but I really need to settle on a plan on work with what I can get.

MikeK wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

Hook it up to the grid, and it reduces your annual bill somewhere between $400 and $600 every year. Solar has more value on the grid than off it.  Electricity is not really a DIY project.

MM

I actually agree with you there.  It's hard to dispute that the grid is a more efficient, reliable system, and cheaper as well.

I still do think solar can make sense for a small cabin, full time if you are willing to give up some stuff... 500W amp first and foremost (unless you want to host small music festivals).

I did some accounting yesterday.  It really isn't that bad.  Say you want a fridge, freezer, a few low power lights, water pressure pump and possibly a recirc pump for a hot water system.  It's completely doable with batteries and solar.  It's rather expensive because to make it efficient you need to buy specialized systems, but that then becomes 'free' for the foreseeable future.  For a person like myself, I'd rather spend the money up front and not have to pay in the future, but that's how I operate.  And I also would budget some money for failure or repairs, as not all of this stuff lasts forever.

I think if I were going solar only I would build a 12 or 24 volt DC system with lots of battery capacity.  Use LEDs and a marine refrigerator.  But a well pump is 1000 watts or more.  A 10 kW solar array probably doesn't make 1000 watts for more than a few hours between November and January.  You will also have a hard time getting a building permit or mortgage for something like that, even in the Adirondacks.
There's a reason nobody goes off the grid.

MM  

MikeK wrote

You know, I'm most likely going to start with grid if it's available, but I'd like to design to be able to get rid of it in the future.

The tree cutting thing is one thing I've thought about in the Adirondacks.  You gotta clear a lot of land for sun to get to your panels, and then make sure a tree doesn't fall on them or your house in a storm.

The grid is good... and in the Adirondacks it makes a lot of sense in most cases because it's there.  There are some places it's not, in which case I'd consider the alternatives.

When I first thought about building a place in ADKs about 5 years ago, I had thought I'd try to do grid and propane with wood heat as the main.  As I started to research and look at land, I found a lot more places without electric access, and I started to think about the alternatives.

Because my idea was for the place to be a part time second home for a while, I thought I could deal without electric as long as I had a well.  My initial idea there was to have the well drilled and build the house right over the well with a freeze-proof hand pump coming right into the house.  With a full basement that might be easier, but I still think it would freeze so I'd probably stay the course.

The idea was always to use a grey water catch and compost toilet (no septic) but seen as how composters don't work well unless you have heat, I figured I'd design the capability in and start with a good 'old fashion out house.  Not the most comfortable in the winter, but for weekends it's fine.

Eventually I'd add in electric via solar until it was livable.  The issue is I don't want to pay to keep the pipes from freezing unless I'm there year round, so I wouldn't put that capability in until I made the move.  Ideally that would be when I stop working, or am working only part time.

I dunno - my thoughts change year to year, but I really need to settle on a plan on work with what I can get.

What you seem to be saying that "off the grid" really means living in a hunting camp.  You can do it, it's fun for a weekend, but not as a permanent way of life.  To me it just seems too time consuming, and as I get older I definitely don't want to haul wood or deal with freezing pipes on my own.  I don't even want to be too far from neighbors anymore.  Somebody's gotta be around to call the ambulance.

MM

Milo Maltbie wrote

 
What you seem to be saying that "off the grid" really means living in a hunting camp.  You can do it, it's fun for a weekend, but not as a permanent way of life.  To me it just seems too time consuming, and as I get older I definitely don't want to haul wood or deal with freezing pipes on my own.  I don't even want to be too far from neighbors anymore.  Somebody's gotta be around to call the ambulance.

MM

Lots of truth right there. I "live" in a hunting camp for two weeks a year. We have a generator for power, wood stove for our only source of heat, and spring fed water supply ----- last year (first time ever) the spring quit on us. Hauling water from the crick is ZERO fun when it's balls cold out. Just getting ready for those two weeks takes an incredible amount of time, and not just my time, there's 4 to 6 guys each work day. To live like that year round would be a full-time job itself, a true homesteader.  

Milo Maltbie wrote

x10003q wrote

First - here is a site for a solar house in Maine. It works in the winter.
http://www.solarhouse.com/
Second - Head to the Southern US if you want to live on less than 30k for 2 people.

That house makes maybe 4000 kWh all year, mostly in the summer.  That's enough to run your lights and a refrigerator, maybe a well pump, but it's completely unreliable.  To run off the grid, you'll need nearly a month worth of battery storage to run on it all winter, and maybe more.  Even then, maybe it goes low voltage for a couple of hours while you're away and it smokes all your pump motors.
Hook it up to the grid, and it reduces your annual bill somewhere between $400 and $600 every year. Solar has more value on the grid than off it.  Electricity is not really a DIY project.

MM

The Maine house costs about $8/month for the electric hook up to the grid. They also have solar hot water, solar radiant heat, and a passive solar design. They do use wood as needed. It is an amazing project and they have been documenting it online since 1995.

campgottagopee wrote

Lots of truth right there. I "live" in a hunting camp for two weeks a year. We have a generator for power, wood stove for our only source of heat, and spring fed water supply ----- last year (first time ever) the spring quit on us. Hauling water from the crick is ZERO fun when it's balls cold out. Just getting ready for those two weeks takes an incredible amount of time, and not just my time, there's 4 to 6 guys each work day. To live like that year round would be a full-time job itself, a true homesteader.

That's why a reliable, drilled well is the first priority.  A lot of people skip that for hunting camps because it's expensive.  But if you ever plan on it being more than a hunting camp, it's a must IMO.

Milo Maltbie wrote

What you seem to be saying that "off the grid" really means living in a hunting camp.  You can do it, it's fun for a weekend, but not as a permanent way of life.  To me it just seems too time consuming, and as I get older I definitely don't want to haul wood or deal with freezing pipes on my own.  I don't even want to be too far from neighbors anymore.  Somebody's gotta be around to call the ambulance.

MM

Maybe you read it that way, but yes at first, it would.  And I wouldn't live there full time, just use it as a weekend home.

The transition to a more livable (for our modern 'needs') is maybe less than what some people would want, but certainly more than a hunting camp.

I honestly could care less about my dying.  I'd rather die happy in the woods than miserable in a retirement home.  Maybe that will change.

And it's not like I have never lived this way before.  I spent the first portion of my life with no electric and later on lived on a small farm where we used only wood to heat.  It's maybe not for everyone, but the more attached you become to modern convenience, the less likely you are to revert.

Also I don't plan on taking loans out for anything I do.  There's no need unless you need it NOW and want to pay for it over the next 10-20 years.  You can do it cash and little by little over the next 10 years and do whatever you want.  Actually the hardest part about building in the ADKs in the septic to my knowledge, and that's not that hard, just the APA is a little more stringent than outside the blue line.  Mobile homes are sometimes an issue too.  I'm pretty sure what I'm after isn't a big issue and not something the APA is trying to prevent.

I dug into that Maine house website and the problem they are facing is that the state legislature wants to eliminate net metering.  WTF am I missing? How does that make any sense?

Mike sounds like you got some good stories.

I got some really bad ones too...

When I had my big boat and would do crossings we were well off the grid. Power came from a small windmill and a 10 hp aux diesel. The diesel performed three functions, generate electricity, make hot water and run the compressor for the refrigeration. We ran it a few hours each day. Drinking water came from an osmotic desalinator. We lived well.  If we were in colder climates we had a small charcoal heater and a small CNG heater. Cooking was done with alcohol. It can easily be done, if you design the system right.

Harvey wrote

I dug into that Maine house website and the problem they are facing is that the state legislature wants to eliminate net metering.  WTF am I missing? How does that make any sense?

The problem with net metering is that it puts a bunch of uncontrolled, unreliable generators on the system, and it leaves a lot of value on the table.  The system needs to balance load and supply continuously, and maintain voltage and frequency within narrow limits.  With net metering, the operators see only a lower and more volatile load in the afternoon, and they need to shut down base load generators (which are the most efficient) and add more spinning reserves to match the volatile load.  California expects to add so much net metered solar in the next few years that there will not be enough load to keep some of the most efficient plants online. If they have to take one of those off line for an hour, they lose it for a week. At the same time they may not have enough fast ramping generation to pick up the load when the sun sets. (Google "duck curve.")

All that is separate from the revenue issue.  In NY, you get a supply charge and a delivery charge.  The delivery costs (as opposed to revenue) have almost nothing to do with the amount of energy you use, but the net metered customer can avoid paying all or most of the delivery charge.  In NY, all the other customers automatically pick up the lost revenue. (Google "revenue decoupling.") If half the customers net metered to zero,  the other half of customers would be throwing rocks through your solar panels when they got the bill.  

Wholesale supply is priced on 5 minute intervals, and the price can range from less than 1 cent to over a dollar or more depending on the time of day.  Solar is mostly available on high cost summer hours, so it probably drives supply cost down, but it also increases reserve requirements, so that adds some cost.  Net metered wind power drives supply prices up.
The next thing will be smart inverters on solar panels, without net metering.  With a smart inverter, solar could sell energy or voltage support or maybe frequency regulation back to the grid.  That would actually add more value to solar and allow the grid to accept more solar. If you sold back at the correct hourly prices, you would also turn your panels more west, which makes less energy but adds more value because it aligns more closely with high load hours.

No one who understands electric industry operations disagrees with any of that, not even the solar guys who know operations. Some of us think that solar has pretty limited potential, but I agree with those that think solar will be huge, but it needs to get beyond net metering.

MM