Tiny Houses

PeeTex wrote

When I had my big boat and would do crossings we were well off the grid. Power came from a small windmill and a 10 hp aux diesel. The diesel performed three functions, generate electricity, make hot water and run the compressor for the refrigeration. We ran it a few hours each day. Drinking water came from an osmotic desalinator. We lived well.  If we were in colder climates we had a small charcoal heater and a small CNG heater. Cooking was done with alcohol. It can easily be done, if you design the system right.

I've spent time on boats too.  It's comfortable and easy enough to work all that stuff on a boat, but on land it just becomes too time consuming, and there's too much other stuff I want to do.  Plus, I would be afraid to be away for even a couple of days if I didn't have reliable heat in the house. YMMV.

MM

   

I'm pretty much just thinking out loud, but my ideas for an off-grid weekend cabin (not primary residence) are:

 - 600 square foot, permanent foundation, crawl space but no basement.
 - Full kitchen and bathroom, 1 or 2 small bedrooms (probably 1) + sleeping loft. Open floorplan for heating efficiency.
 - Covered front porch with mud room / gear room.  Screened-in porch off the back.
 - Solar panels + battery storage (i.e. Tesla PowerWall).
 - High efficiency electric refrigerator and lights.
 - No dishwasher, washing machine or dryer (all energy hogs and not needed for a weekend cabin).
 - Propane for heat, hot water, cooking.  Hot water would be a tankless on-demand unit.
 - Water supply = well and pump (I know, power hog).
 - Composting toilet, simple basin/septic field for gray water.
 - No electric grid connection.
 - Small "whole house" standby generator, propane powered.
 - Internet connection (you're right PeeTex. I think HughesNet is pretty much the only option.  That's what Lou Dawson uses at WildSnow.com).

When you're not there, the electric requirements are very low.  Just the fridge, internet connection, and maybe a blower for the propane heating system.  Even with diminished output from panels in the winter, I think you could stay ahead of the curve and keep your battery topped off. If the solar craps out entirely (i.e. panels are snow-covered) the unoccupied cabin would probably be OK for days (maybe a week?) by running off the battery, since all you're drawing is enough electric to keep the propane-fired heat running (blower and controls) at 55 degrees or so.  When the battery goes below a certain threshold (say 20%), you have the propane generator rigged to kick in automatically (the standard configuration is that these gens kick in when grid power is interrupted for longer than 30 seconds).  The gen runs long enough to bring the battery to full charge then shuts down (I have no idea how long that takes, guessing 6 hours?).  All of the above can be easily monitored remotely with an internet connection (indoor temperature, battery level, propane level), so if systems fail, you are in a position to do something about it.

Yes, the solar panels, battery and standby generator are all added costs.  But connecting to the grid would have a cost in many Adk locations.  Operating costs are not zero (unless you never need the standby generator), but should be reasonable for a weekend-type cabin.

Thoughts?

Yea nice plan ADK. I noticed on the link you posted the powerwall has an temperature operating range of down to -4F.

Wonder what happens at temps below that ? System shut down, loss of efficiency ?

If you're going thru putting in a foundation w/ a crawl space why not do a full basement?? The cost diff would be minimal at best, and I would think the space created from a full basement would be extremely useful in a 600 sq ft house. Before I bought my current house I was soooo close to building a small house on some land I own and I went round and round with the exact same dilemma myself. The only way I found to save enough money to make it worth while was to build on a slab.

Sounds like a rad pad Jeff...

I assume by the fridge you mean a guy like this?

http://www.sundanzer.com/product/dcr165-dcf165/

They are setup  for DC and don't take use much power at all.

I think the standby generator isn't a bad idea these days.  I'd probably opt for that as a backup and maybe for hot water.

The one thing I would caution against, and this is based on experience, is the crawl space.  In the home I grew up in there was a crawl space under our bathroom and laundry room and the pipes were always freezing.  It was connected to a the full basement but it still didn't stay warm enough.  There are 'fixes' for that like heat tape, but I don't know how much I'd rely on that.  My current house has this same stupid design, but luckily enough the runs of the pipes are short enough it doesn't freeze.  It might if got really cold.  The floor is constantly cold too over a crawl space, so that's another detriment.  I even had mine insulated to the max.  Still cold.

One option is to just have a deep basement under where you have pipes.  Put your water pump down there as well.  As long as you keep the rest of the house warm, and don't seal it off completely, it won't freeze.

You might be able to hand dig something like that, but in the mountains you never know if you are going to hit a boulder or bedrock, or it could be an easy dig of just sand.  It's one of the issues you have with pipes and no basement.  I'm of course thinking of situations where your way out and it isn't cheap or easy to get an excavator to the property.

The other option is put in a freezeproof hand pump for winter and winterize your other plumbing - you don't want your pump to freeze.  You'll lose your water pressure and hot water, but you'll never have to worry about the pipes freezing.  It's a pretty simple concept, all it is, is a high power hand pump that stays primed to just below the freeze line.

Snowballs wrote

Yea nice plan ADK. I noticed on the link you posted the powerwall has an temperature operating range of down to -4F.

Wonder what happens at temps below that ? System shut down, loss of efficiency ?

LiIon batteries can loose 20% of their power output at low temps (those below 0C) and 10 to 15% of the number of useful cycles where a cycle is the number of times it will accept a charge from less than 50% discharge. If I were going off grid I would go with a small diesel generator and a punch of 6V golf cart batteries. The EPA has banned the use of Listers, you can't import them anymore because they don't meet tier 4. They are an incredible engine that when built right will run forever. Extract the waist heat to make hot water and they end up being very thermally efficient.

What's HughesNet? Some form of residential INMARSAT? Their site doesn't really expalin what technology it is beyond just specifying it as a means of satellite comms. Guess I'll call their tech folks tomorrow. Just curious about this. First I've heard of it.

PeeTex wrote

Snowballs wrote

Yea nice plan ADK. I noticed on the link you posted the powerwall has an temperature operating range of down to -4F.

Wonder what happens at temps below that ? System shut down, loss of efficiency ?

LiIon batteries can loose 20% of their power output at low temps (those below 0C) and 10 to 15% of the number of useful cycles where a cycle is the number of times it will accept a charge from less than 50% discharge. If I were going off grid I would go with a small diesel generator and a punch of 6V golf cart batteries. The EPA has banned the use of Listers, you can't import them anymore because they don't meet tier 4. They are an incredible engine that when built right will run forever. Extract the waist heat to make hot water and they end up being very thermally efficient.

They may have to install these indoors in northern climes. Shaded in southern ones.

Good points Camp & Mike, the more I think about it the more a "real" basement makes sense.

PeeTex, I'd keep the battery indoors in a utility closet or basement to avoid temperature extremes.  I don't know anything about those diesel gens you mentioned, but I'm thinking propane would be more practical as you could use a single fuel for cooking, hot water, heat, generator.  Plus I ain't no engineer, so I'd be looking for a system that would work right out of the box, for example a small off-grid solar system like this (and those are US-made panels by the way) coupled with a backup gen like this (designed specifically to interact with off-grid solar applications).  Not cheap, but you get to give the utility company a big FU forever.  OK, at least on weekends.

Adk Jeff wrote

Good points Camp & Mike, the more I think about it the more a "real" basement makes sense.

PeeTex, I'd keep the battery indoors in a utility closet or basement to avoid temperature extremes.  I don't know anything about those diesel gens you mentioned, but I'm thinking propane would be more practical as you could use a single fuel for cooking, hot water, heat, generator.  Plus I ain't no engineer, so I'd be looking for a system that would work right out of the box, for example a small off-grid solar system like this (and those are US-made panels by the way) coupled with a backup gen like this (designed specifically to interact with off-grid solar applications).  Not cheap, but you get to give the utility company a big FU forever.  OK, at least on weekends.

Keeping the batteries in a controlled climate is the right thing to do, but not in your house, in heated shed and above ground where they will stay dryer. Lead Acid batteries for a static application are by far the most cost effective. They will need venting and need to be kept dry. Lions are susceptible to an electrical failure and can explode. So in either case you want them away from the house.
The issue with LPG is the cost, that comes from the cost of the fuel itself pulse the cost to compress it into a liquid state. Another issue with LPG is that at very cold temperatures, say around -20 you will begin to see a significant drop in pressure. By the time you get to -40 you will have no gas. Hopefully you will never see those temps in the Adirondacks but in some places we see a night or two a year at -20. LPG is heavier than air and if that hermits cabin has a basement and you get a gas leak inside the house - boom.

LNG is a better choice as it is lighter than air, has a high vapor pressure even in the coldest temps but unfortunately has 15% less heat content than LPG (and 44% less than diesel). The big issue with LNG is you can't find it and you need a very expensive cryo tank to store it. CNG also has good cold temp characteristics and is lighter than air. CNG is better as far as the supply ecosystem, there are a few refueling stations around. CNG has only 23% of the heat content per gallon of Diesel which means that you need to multiply it's price by 4 when comparing costs. At 4X diesel it is not cost effective - imagine filling your car with $10/g fuel. So why is gas heat considered the most cost effective - that's because residential gas delivered through a pipe is low pressure (15 to 100psi) and not compressed to a liquid form.

In general, LPG, LNG or CNG are all poor choices if you want to go "End of civilization" scenario, you need a huge infrastructure and a delivery system. Diesel (or any oil including veggie) or alcohol are better. You can easily store it and stabilize it and in a pinch, make your own fuel. For a remote off grid weekend cabin w/o basement, LPG. With basement CNG.

In this case, solar, wind or hydro would be better choices. Get your bulk heat (cooking, hot water & rooms) from wood. SO if you are a few years out, start tracking residential sterling engine power units. This one looks extremely attractive:



There are no US distributors at this time though. But imagine using any available fuel from extracting bio-gas to saw dust.

Kind of amazing that this thread started as a breakout from banned members thread. So cool.

Jeff I am wondering... on your land, what is the elevation and how far down is ledge?

Invested in a 7000 kw system,intertied,$27,000, $7000 NYSERDA , 1st year $6000 +/- tax encentive
carry over to 2016. 0 electric bill. 5/6 thousand  out of pocket? Whatever, makes me feel good. And yes there are environmental impacts to every decision we make.

PeeTex wrote

Keeping the batteries in a controlled climate is the right thing to do, but not in your house, in heated shed and above ground where they will stay dryer.

I may be wrong, but I thought the Tesla PowerWall was made with indoor installation in mind.  Don't know about other batteries, but I'd certainly store them in whatever manner was recommended and safe.

PeeTex wrote

The issue with LPG is the cost, that comes from the cost of the fuel itself pulse the cost to compress it into a liquid state.

While heating oil and natural gas are both cheaper per btu, propane is not much more expensive. Propane is widely used, widely available and competitively priced.  

PeeTex wrote

Another issue with LPG is that at very cold temperatures, say around -20 you will begin to see a significant drop in pressure. By the time you get to -40 you will have no gas. Hopefully you will never see those temps in the Adirondacks but in some places we see a night or two a year at -20. LPG is heavier than air and if that hermits cabin has a basement and you get a gas leak inside the house - boom.

Look, every fuel has its plusses and minuses.  Heating oil and diesel gel in cold temps, substituting kero is expensive, liquid fuels can and do spill. Tanks can leak and cleaning up a 50 or 100 gallon spill can turn into a nightmare.  And guess what, homeowner's insurance typically does not cover environmental clean-up.

PeeTex wrote

LNG is a better choice...

You're going off the deep end with LNG / CNG.  Those are not currently viable residential fuel sources.  Who do I call in North Creek or Wilmington for a delivery? In rural areas like the Adk where natural gas is not available, your choices for heating are oil, propane or electric.

PeeTex wrote

In general, LPG, LNG or CNG are all poor choices if you want to go "End of civilization" scenario, you need a huge infrastructure and a delivery system. Diesel (or any oil including veggie) or alcohol are better. You can easily store it and stabilize it and in a pinch, make your own fuel. For a remote off grid weekend cabin w/o basement, LPG. With basement CNG.

I'm definitely not taking the "survivalist" approach, and I'm definitely not making my own fuel.

Again, I appreciate all the insight, but I'm looking to keep it simple, practical and as hands-off as possible.

Harvey wrote

Jeff I am wondering... on your land, what is the elevation and how far down is ledge?

The property I own in North River is around 1600' .  No idea how far down you hit ledge rock.

We put propane in our utility head (ie bathroom/kitchen).  Granted it's only 9x9 and well insulated, but I just paid our annual propane bill and it was $141 and that includes hot water.  I bet Jeff's place would run pretty cheap on propane.

The Rinnai tankless hot water and space heater are really pretty sweet.

Harvey wrote

We put propane in our utility head (ie bathroom/kitchen).  Granted it's only 9x9 and well insulated, but I just paid our annual propane bill and it was $141 and that includes hot water.  I bet Jeff's place would run pretty cheap on propane.

The Rinnai tankless hot water and space heater are really pretty sweet.

And I'll bet you're paying a relatively high price per gallon because your usage is so low.  I'm guessing you ran through maybe 50ish gallons of propane.

In the type of place I'm envisioning, I'd probably run through 10 times that much fuel, but the cost per gallon comes down when you use higher quantities.  Fuel companies like being able to make a delivery of 120 - 150 + gallons (or more if you have a larger tank).

I've got two of those big sort off roundish tanks (320s or 640s I forget).

Might be able to got two years on a fill... would I save any money? Still would hate to run out. If the truck had to come up the driveway in the spring it would trash it and negate any saving.

Still feels like a pretty good deal.

Adk Jeff wrote

PeeTex wrote

Keeping the batteries in a controlled climate is the right thing to do, but not in your house, in heated shed and above ground where they will stay dryer.

I may be wrong, but I thought the Tesla PowerWall was made with indoor installation in mind.  Don't know about other batteries, but I'd certainly store them in whatever manner was recommended and safe.

It is, but safety remains to be seen. Lithium IONs explode, that's why they don't like them on airplanes. The issue is that if you have a failure in the charging system that causes an overcharge or you have a short they can explode.  Hell, put it under your bed for all I care.

PeeTex wrote

The issue with LPG is the cost, that comes from the cost of the fuel itself pulse the cost to compress it into a liquid state.

Adk Jeff wrote

While heating oil and natural gas are both cheaper per btu, propane is not much more expensive. Propane is widely used, widely available and competitively priced.

Propane for heat is only slightly less expensive than electric.

PeeTex wrote

Another issue with LPG is that at very cold temperatures, say around -20 you will begin to see a significant drop in pressure. By the time you get to -40 you will have no gas. Hopefully you will never see those temps in the Adirondacks but in some places we see a night or two a year at -20. LPG is heavier than air and if that hermits cabin has a basement and you get a gas leak inside the house - boom.

Adk Jeff wrote

Look, every fuel has its plusses and minuses.  Heating oil and diesel gel in cold temps, substituting kero is expensive, liquid fuels can and do spill. Tanks can leak and cleaning up a 50 or 100 gallon spill can turn into a nightmare.  And guess what, homeowner's insurance typically does not cover environmental clean-up.

You can add a small preheater to keep diesel flowing particularly if you insulate the tanks and lines. Placing a retaining tub around the tank is a typical and easy method to prevent spills. Be pigheaded if you wish.

PeeTex wrote

LNG is a better choice...

Adk Jeff wrote

You're going off the deep end with LNG / CNG.  Those are not currently viable residential fuel sources.  Who do I call in North Creek or Wilmington for a delivery? In rural areas like the Adk where natural gas is not available, your choices for heating are oil, propane or electric.

You took that out of context so don't be stupid. I said there was no supply, I was just being thorough in my answer, trying to cover the bases for you - trying to educate, I won't make that mistake again.

PeeTex wrote

In general, LPG, LNG or CNG are all poor choices if you want to go "End of civilization" scenario, you need a huge infrastructure and a delivery system. Diesel (or any oil including veggie) or alcohol are better. You can easily store it and stabilize it and in a pinch, make your own fuel. For a remote off grid weekend cabin w/o basement, LPG. With basement CNG.

Adk Jeff wrote

I'm definitely not taking the "survivalist" approach, and I'm definitely not making my own fuel.

Again, I appreciate all the insight, but I'm looking to keep it simple, practical and as hands-off as possible.

Please don't use LPG if your basement is not a walk out. I really don't want to read about a cabin going boom. A gas leak in the house will collect in low areas. I have seen homes in the Daks with basements and LPG, it's done all the time, but I would not own one.

Harvey wrote

Jeff I am wondering... on your land, what is the elevation and how far down is ledge?

The property I own in North River is around 1600' .  No idea how far down you hit ledge rock.

Harvey wrote

 and well insulated

BOOM!!!
If there's a secret right there it is. IMO doesn't matter what kind of heat one chooses, the best insulating qualities one can buy/install are where you need to spend ur money. I'm a huge fan of the foam insulation. Stuff is pliable and easy to install during new construction.

I've haven't kept up with this, but it looks like you're coming around to a consensus of a weekend off the grid tiny house of about 600 SF, with a dug basement, fully insulated with tight windows, with fuel oil heat with pre-heaters, a diesel generator with micro-hydro and solar with lead acid batteries for back up, a drilled well with a pump, a woodstove and CNG gas cooking, all without taking a mortgage to build it.
Add a charging station for my Tesla and a landing spot for my Bell 407, and I'm in.  I'm really looking forward to a greener,simpler life.

MM
   

LOL! ^^^