Tupper Lake and ACR

Who knows ? It may never happen. It may not even be necessary to upgrade/re-open the ski area for this project to succeed. With 700 potential homes planned, re-opening the ski area may not even be necessary for this project to have an significant impact on TL's economy. These homes will be pricey. Anybody buying them will likely have income that is not dependent on employment in the TL region. Thus they will have money to spend at TL.

Take the Lake George lake homes for example. Many are second homes, I know people who live in Glen's Falls yet they have a lake house on LG. Go figure.

Big Tupper attracting many skiers from outside the area is, imo, not likely. Face and Gore will snag those road trippers. That probably helped lead to Big Tupper's downfall in the first place.

Air travel killed the Catskills and points further north, and cheap air travel put a spike in the heart of those economies. This oil glut and price drop will doom any plans of reviving those economies in at least the next decade, if ever. Why would someone spend in the millions for a large home up there next to a barely alive small ski area when they can jump on a plane and be in Denver, the last i checked, for about 275 bucks round trip? Has anyone done a smidgen of marketing here, or, is all this just built on faith?

That assumes winter only Benny. Think 4 seasons.

Snowballs wrote

Who knows ? It may never happen. It may not even be necessary to upgrade/re-open the ski area for this project to succeed.

Re-development of the ski area is one of the central points around which the entire project was pitched by the developer to the community and the region.  At a minimum, backing off on re-development of the ski area would be disingenuous.

I'm not looking to re-open the debate about the viability of the project (which has already been extensively debated on this forum).  I'd just like to take up Mr. Lavalley's offer to clear up questions about the project.  I ain't driving to Tupper or Long Lake for answers though.

Adk Jeff wrote

Snowballs wrote

Who knows ? It may never happen. It may not even be necessary to upgrade/re-open the ski area for this project to succeed.

Re-development of the ski area is one of the central points around which the entire project was pitched by the developer to the community and the region.  At a minimum, backing off on re-development of the ski area would be disingenuous.

Right.

Benny Profane wrote

Why would someone spend in the millions for a large home up there next to a barely alive small ski area when they can jump on a plane and be in Denver, the last i checked, for about 275 bucks round trip?

And then slog through 4+ hours of stop and go traffic with the masses of humanity to get to the skiing.  Listen to all the stories of people who moved out there.  They are saying they like it less than the east because of the I70 mess.  I see many more stories complaining about that than of people about how much they like living there.  I want to go out west, but I'm not dealing with that, so I'll be in Utah, Big Sky, or one of the smaller Colorado airports.  Slog through GWB style traffic to go skiing?  No thanks.  I'd rather stick to the east.

Adk Jeff wrote

Jim LaValley wrote

There are no secrets, and we are excited about the future of our community. If you have questions, instead of posting what you think is fact, please contact us.

OK, I'll bite.  The developer has stated he hopes to have shovels in the ground by this summer.  How many years will it take before the Big Tupper ski area has snowmaking, lifts, grooming and a lodge that are on par with other similar sized ski areas (for example, Titus).  And what is the price tag on all those needed improvements (obviously it's many millions of dollars)?  With all due respect to the ARISE volunteers who have been running the area the past 4 or 5 winters, Big Tupper in its present state doesn't even come close to being in a position to attract enough skiers from out of the area to make a difference in Tupper Lake's economy.

Jeff, According to Tom Lawson back in April 2014 he was quoted as saying that the ACR had already taken 6 reservations for Great Camps and those 6 investors were in for $20 Million. In the last newspaper article this Lawson guy said they were going to put aside 7.25% of the Great Camp sales towards improvements at Big Tupper. Even if this were true, and I suspect its not, that would give them 1.45 M to work with. If they committed every penny of that to snowmaking it would be a really good faith move on their part. But that would only get the snowmaking system back up and running. It will take a lot more than that to get new lifts, lodge, groomers etc.

As the old saying goes, Talk is Cheap.

Snowballs wrote

That assumes winter only Benny. Think 4 seasons.

Oh, you mean mud season and black fly season, too?

Snowballs has a point. (Did I just say that? )

Skepticism is fine. But if you want Jim to engage here you probably have to give him the idea that he can get his ideas out sans snark.  Not lobbyin just sayin.

Benny Profane wrote

Snowballs wrote

That assumes winter only Benny. Think 4 seasons.

Oh, you mean mud season and black fly season, too?

Yea, that !

Jim LaValley wrote

It is easy to sit at a distance and surmise what will, or will not happen with the Adirondack Club in Tupper Lake or about the people involved. We have said from the beginning, that our door is always open for anyone to come by and hear directly what the plans are. There are no secrets, and we are excited about the future of our community. If you have questions, instead of posting what you think is fact, please contact us. We’re easy to find and more than happy to meet.

This sounds like an invitation for Harv or Jeff to do an in depth article. I would like to know if a small private airport is planned for the jets for those will to plot down $20M a pop? The rich and famous of the 1900s put in rail Spurs, it's only logical your going to need an airport capable enough for medium size private jets.

I remember reading somewhere that the ACR had acquired the old Oval Wood Dish airstrip in Tupper Lake. Not exactly a ready-made luxury facility anymore if you look online- it's in the upper middle of this image. Looks like it went the way of the factory, but the airstrip still shows up on some maps made within the last 10-20 years.  Certainly not large enough for private jets in its current state. Other than this, the closest airport is Adirondack Regional?

PeeTex wrote

Jim LaValley wrote

It is easy to sit at a distance and surmise what will, or will not happen with the Adirondack Club in Tupper Lake or about the people involved. We have said from the beginning, that our door is always open for anyone to come by and hear directly what the plans are. There are no secrets, and we are excited about the future of our community. If you have questions, instead of posting what you think is fact, please contact us. We’re easy to find and more than happy to meet.

This sounds like an invitation for Harv or Jeff to do an in depth article. I would like to know if a small private airport is planned for the jets for those will to plot down $20M a pop? The rich and famous of the 1900s put in rail Spurs, it's only logical your going to need an airport capable enough for medium size private jets.

I think it's Jeff's turn  

http://nyskiblog.com/arise-adirondack-club-resort-and-big-tupper/

Maybe Jim could read through the above story and tell us how much still applies.

EDIT: Actually I think Jeff wrote an something for Adirondack Almanack, and may also have done something on Saratoga Skier. Will look for links when I have a moment.

Ah, well, here's your problem:

 "Jim started by explaining that the ski area will not exist on a long-term basis without the resort. In his opinion, it can only survive as an amenity to the real estate project."

That business model died along with ASC, the 90s, and the real estate bubble popping. Fatally flawed from the beginning, in 2014.

Benny Profane wrote

Ah, well, here's your problem:

 "Jim started by explaining that the ski area will not exist on a long-term basis without the resort. In his opinion, it can only survive as an amenity to the real estate project."

That business model died along with ASC, the 90s, and the real estate bubble popping. Fatally flawed from the beginning, in 2014.

Yeah, if our only hope of saving the ski area is through a dicey real estate scheme, we might as well just give up now.

I realize that Front Street and ACR (and now Hickory) are looking for rich benefactors to prop up these sleepy north country communities, but come on, man.

These people didn't get rich by buying $500,000 houses right down the street from $45,000 houses. And they didn't get rich from paying $10,000 initiation fees (+ $2,000 yearly fees) to stay in a yurt at the base of Hickory. Yes, at a certain point, people just have F you money that they can just throw around willy nilly (mostly seems to go to politics these days). But these people aren't generally in the business of propping up dying mountains in a dying industry.

Maybe these towns should focus on making the area a nice place to live (parks, paths, unique attractions, fun things to do) and then just hope rich people fall in love with these places. Hate to say it, but I don't really have any other solution. I just don't understand why everyone keeps trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

Just a quick question for Mr Lavalley, saw this on the Almanack website.  Does the ACR actually own the land they propose to develop? Have they purchased the OWD property yet. Foxman was quoted in the ADE saying "we expect to be in the ground this summer" and "there will be construction activity before the summer is over" and "Hopefully there will be sales activity even before that".  Don't they have to own the land before they can sell it to someone else? Please Clarify. Thanks.

mattchuck2 wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Ah, well, here's your problem:

 "Jim started by explaining that the ski area will not exist on a long-term basis without the resort. In his opinion, it can only survive as an amenity to the real estate project."

That business model died along with ASC, the 90s, and the real estate bubble popping. Fatally flawed from the beginning, in 2014.

Yeah, if our only hope of saving the ski area is through a dicey real estate scheme, we might as well just give up now.

I realize that Front Street and ACR (and now Hickory) are looking for rich benefactors to prop up these sleepy north country communities, but come on, man.

These people didn't get rich by buying $500,000 houses right down the street from $45,000 houses. And they didn't get rich from paying $10,000 initiation fees (+ $2,000 yearly fees) to stay in a yurt at the base of Hickory. Yes, at a certain point, people just have F you money that they can just throw around willy nilly (mostly seems to go to politics these days). But these people aren't generally in the business of propping up dying mountains in a dying industry.

Maybe these towns should focus on making the area a nice place to live (parks, paths, unique attractions, fun things to do) and then just hope rich people fall in love with these places. Hate to say it, but I don't really have any other solution. I just don't understand why everyone keeps trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

When I lived in Saratoga Springs ten years ago (sheesh), I once considered living in Warrensburg. You know, that much closer to Gore and stuff, but still an OK commute. I spent a day looking around, and, no, that wasn't going to happen. Cheap, but, man, talk about depressing, especially in the winter. Not the kind of place that would attract money, unless they discovered oil or gold under the ground.

Harvey wrote

I think it's Jeff's turn  

http://nyskiblog.com/arise-adirondack-club-resort-and-big-tupper/

Maybe Jim could read through the above story and tell us how much still applies.

EDIT: Actually I think Jeff wrote an something for Adirondack Almanack, and may also have done something on Saratoga Skier. Will look for links when I have a moment.

Nice try, Harv, but I've already blown any semblance of objectivity:
Big Tupper: Good news, bad news (from my blog), and Commentary: Stop Using Big Tupper As A Pawn (from Adirondack Almanack).  Those are the links you were looking for, they are the same commentary but with different comments attached to each.

Although I'm on record as "skeptical," my questions for Mr. Lavalley are sincere.  Since the Big Tupper ski area is the centerpiece of the ACR project, I would assume the developers have identified and prioritized the improvements they would make to the ski area and have a ballpark estimate of the costs.  Let's here about it from Mr. Lavalley and his associates.

For what it's worth, Lavalley made the same offer to provide information (in fact it's word-for-word the same as his post in this forum thread) in this article on Adirondack Almanack a few days ago.  He hasn't followed through with any additional information there, so I'm not hopeful that we'll hear anything further from him here.

What's that we here form LaValley - sorry, crickets.