Tupper Lake and ACR

No crickets and not avoiding anyone.  It's a busy time of year and I am just getting back to see if anyone was willing to take me up on the offer to meet.  While I admire the passion of the folks involved in the discussion, it is too difficult to answer a question without generating 2 or 3 more questions.  That's why a face to face meeting would work much better.  And, it's unfortunate that some of those writing have a tone that seems to wish failure on the Adirondack Club, Big Tupper, and the community.  If the crime is putting ones money, time, and life behind "The Project", then I guess we are guilty.  I also don't see anyone coming up with a 'Plan B' , and standing behind it with their own money.  

Let me try to answer a few of the questions that I saw in this forum -

1.  No, the investors do not own the Oval Wood Dish lands - yet.  They are under contract to purchase and it is contingent upon the investors receiving all of their permit approvals.  The time to purchase the property is coming, and it will happen. The OWD owners are more than happy with the contract and are totally supportive of the ACR effort.  We anticipate that there will be sales on the Great Camp parcels in 2015.

2.  Yes, one of the investors purchased the small landing strip located in Tupper Lake.  There is no expectation of landing a Gulfstream.  It isn't long enough.  Plus, Adirondack is only 20 miles away.  But, it is long enough to land a King Air, or something of equal size.  The airstrip is one piece of the overall puzzle.  

3.   Big Tupper is one of the centerpieces of the project and is part of the early priority efforts for the developers.  We spent two hours this past Saturday with a design team to discuss lodge construction; trail improvements; and snowmaking.  There is a substantial capital cost to all of this, and that is being worked out.  The project developer knows that the ski area, the golf course, and the marina are important amenities to work on, to show likely buyers what their commitment is.  

4.  I continue to believe that the ski area cannot survive without some sort of supporting amenities.  Spend 10 minutes with any of the private ski area owners and you will see the struggles they face.  When you count on a large percentage of your annual revenue to come in during Christmas week, and then it turns 40 degrees and rains – it's tough to rely solely on the skiing.  

5.  There are a number of folks (not just in this forum) that are expecting certain things to happen immediately.  The litigation was just settled, and there are a few items that are being finalized.  There are a number of things that have been underway that may not be as visible, but are part of the building blocks for the overall project.  No one is sitting quietly on this end.  It is a full court press on all fronts.

Skiers are a passionate group, and I respect the support they show for the industry.  The people involved with Big Tupper today (ARISE and the ACR investors) are showing a commitment to make a center piece of their community, come back to life.  I hope all of you will visit Big Tupper this winter – once the snow returns.  And please know that I continue to welcome the opportunity to meet face to face.

"And, it's unfortunate that some of those writing have a tone that seems to wish failure on the Adirondack Club, Big Tupper, and the community."

That's a bit rich. I think I can speak for most that, first, we wish the ski area the best, second, sympathize with the community, but, third, could care less about your personal profit center, the Adirondack Club, and it's unfortunate ostentation. You may have all of them lumped together in you head, but, not us. And maybe that's your problem, because you list the ski hill again, as an "amenity". Jezuz, I hate that term. Lumps a ski mountain in with free wi-fi and concierge service.

 I don't get how your mansions can create cash flow to keep a ski hill alive. How is that possible? As I said in a post above, this little two step shuffle has been tried before, and, yeah, has made some people rich, but, we have that recent history to point to as just a scam for financiers and carpetbaggers to make their life's little fortune before leaving Dodge. Some of us are pretty hip to that jive. An entire corporation (ASC) came and went on that sort of sales talk.
It's unfortunate how you are holding the ski area hostage to all this, and preying on the desperation of a basically hopeless "community" with a modern equivalent of snake oil. But, I wouldn't be surprised to see it actually happen in some mutated form. Sounds like somebody has all of their eggs in one basket and won't give up. Somebody will be writing the sad history of all this in thirty years when all of the actors are gone. It won't be a happy, pretty story.

Jim,

Nice reply and I can sense the enthusiasm. I don't believe anyone here wants your project to fail, there may be some that wish it would never happen, but failure is an even worse option.  I encourage you to continue the discussion, filter out the snarks and nay-sayers, keep your skin a little thick and charge on. You are unlikely to find a single investor here but I hope you find supporters for the revival of Big Tupper.

Thank you!  We have never been more excited about the future of Tupper Lake.

Jim

Best of luck with your project.  The area sorely needs the jobs and money it will bring to the local economy.  I look forward to skiing at Tupper.

PeeTex wrote

Jim,

Nice reply and I can sense the enthusiasm.\

Agreed. As far as the ski area goes, it may not be practical to re-do it until there's a fair amount of the homes sold.

 

I don't know anything about real estate or development, but I always think developers do this backwards (usually because they don't have enough money to start out with).

The idea is usually to sell a couple of high end properties first to gain some money to put in the "amenities", but that always seemed backwards to me. Like, I wish Front Street built that hotel/conference center and Golf course first, because now they just have some high end homes in North Creek that nobody wants.

My parents bought property in North Carolina because the golf course, pool, beach house, etc. were already in place. If you drive around down there, there are a bunch of communities with no houses (or very few houses) and miles and miles of decrepit abandoned roads (with lots laid out, sewer/water lines in, electric in place - put in when the developer thought he'd have a lot more buyers than he did). The places that were abandoned were the same places that didn't have golf courses, beach houses, pools, etc.

I feel like if the ACR people were really serious, they'd actually buy the land, build the marina up, revamp the golf course, and start working on the damn ski area. THEN, they'd go to some potential buyers with a cool place to live and say: "check out this shit".

But, like with all of these Adirondack businesses, the money just isn't there. And I'm not optimistic that it ever will be.

And I don't wish failure on anyone. I want Big Tupper to succeed wildly. If the ACR is the way to do that, then cool, I'm for the ACR.

But I feel like the mountain needs some serious money to be sunk into improvements and it doesn't really seem like that's a priority for the ACR people (who, admittedly, have a lot on their plate).

I'll echo PeeTex's thanks for the reply, Jim.  However, there is essentially no information in your reply regarding the developer's plans for the ski area.  We're skiers here, so I think it's natural for that to be the part of the ACR project that we're most interested in hearing about.  So I'll re-ask my questions about the ski area:

-How many years will it take before the Big Tupper ski area has snowmaking, lifts, grooming and a lodge that are on par with other similar sized ski areas?  Exactly what improvements are being considered by the developers?

-What is the ballpark price tag on all those needed improvements?

-How will the improvements be financed?  I know there is some sort of sinking fund that has been proposed (as was mentioned earlier in this thread).  Please confirm the sinking fund arrangement (7.25% of gross sales) or provide other details.

I'm not here to debate the viability of the project or whether or not it's a good thing for Tupper Lake or the Adirondacks. I just want some actual numbers and details that demonstrate that revitalization of the ski area is a REAL commitment on the part of the developers, and not just a carrot that's being dangled in front of the community.  

Since the ski area is "one of the centerpieces of the project and is part of the early priority efforts for the developers," and since the developers have been working on this project for something like 10 years, there surely must be plans, timelines and budgets that can be shared besides just "We spent two hours this past Saturday with a design team to discuss lodge construction; trail improvements; and snowmaking" and "There is a substantial capital cost to all of this, and that is being worked out."  We'd like to hear about those plans, even if they're hedged with the uncertainties and contingencies that we all expect would apply at this stage of the project.

Jim LaValley wrote

No crickets and not avoiding anyone.  It's a busy time of year and I am just getting back to see if anyone was willing to take me up on the offer to meet.  While I admire the passion of the folks involved in the discussion, it is too difficult to answer a question without generating 2 or 3 more questions.  That's why a face to face meeting would work much better.  And, it's unfortunate that some of those writing have a tone that seems to wish failure on the Adirondack Club, Big Tupper, and the community.  If the crime is putting ones money, time, and life behind "The Project", then I guess we are guilty.  I also don't see anyone coming up with a 'Plan B' , and standing behind it with their own money.  

Let me try to answer a few of the questions that I saw in this forum -

1.  No, the investors do not own the Oval Wood Dish lands - yet.  They are under contract to purchase and it is contingent upon the investors receiving all of their permit approvals.  The time to purchase the property is coming, and it will happen. The OWD owners are more than happy with the contract and are totally supportive of the ACR effort.  We anticipate that there will be sales on the Great Camp parcels in 2015.

2.  Yes, one of the investors purchased the small landing strip located in Tupper Lake.  There is no expectation of landing a Gulfstream.  It isn't long enough.  Plus, Adirondack is only 20 miles away.  But, it is long enough to land a King Air, or something of equal size.  The airstrip is one piece of the overall puzzle.  

3.   Big Tupper is one of the centerpieces of the project and is part of the early priority efforts for the developers.  We spent two hours this past Saturday with a design team to discuss lodge construction; trail improvements; and snowmaking.  There is a substantial capital cost to all of this, and that is being worked out.  The project developer knows that the ski area, the golf course, and the marina are important amenities to work on, to show likely buyers what their commitment is.  

4.  I continue to believe that the ski area cannot survive without some sort of supporting amenities.  Spend 10 minutes with any of the private ski area owners and you will see the struggles they face.  When you count on a large percentage of your annual revenue to come in during Christmas week, and then it turns 40 degrees and rains – it's tough to rely solely on the skiing.  

5.  There are a number of folks (not just in this forum) that are expecting certain things to happen immediately.  The litigation was just settled, and there are a few items that are being finalized.  There are a number of things that have been underway that may not be as visible, but are part of the building blocks for the overall project.  No one is sitting quietly on this end.  It is a full court press on all fronts.

Skiers are a passionate group, and I respect the support they show for the industry.  The people involved with Big Tupper today (ARISE and the ACR investors) are showing a commitment to make a center piece of their community, come back to life.  I hope all of you will visit Big Tupper this winter – once the snow returns.  And please know that I continue to welcome the opportunity to meet face to face.

Thanks for the response but I agree w Adk Jeff, not many answers given.  A little clarification would help.

1. So the ACR wont\'t actually buy the property until they receive all permit approvals?(not just APA) DEC? comptollers Office? Army Corps of Engineers? Health Dept? Local Planning board? And how far along are those various permits?

2. Great. New Airport.

3. So big Tupper is one of the centerpieces, please answer Adk Jeffs questions with a little more detail. Surely after 10 yrs there must be a rather specific plan and timeline.
Also, you mention the golf Course, as far as I know it is owned by the Town of Tupper Lake, is the ACR going to be buying it or putting some of their money in to make improvements? If so, what improvements?

Also, you never did respond, who are some of the investors? We keep hearing they are waiting in the shadows, now that the ACR has the green light, why not come out and let everyone see who they are, I think it would build confidence for other potential investors.  

Does the developer still need $10 million from the Franklin County IDA for infrastructure?

The largest potential market for this highly speculative project now has a Canadian dollar that is worth .86 US dollar.

Those 20 or so great camps might get sold, but the other 680 units will never happen.

Jim

I also would like to know your plans for using E5B

It seems to have worked wonders at Jay.  Can it work here?

x10003q wrote

Does the developer still need $10 million from the Franklin County IDA for infrastructure?

The largest potential market for this highly speculative project now has a Canadian dollar that is worth .86 US dollar.

Those 20 or so great camps might get sold, but the other 680 units will never happen.

The last verifiable information in the APA application was that the ACR was going to be asking the Franklin County IDA for $36 Million with a PILOT program. This has been discussed in this blog previously but the short of it means that the developers get their infrastructure costs paid for by forfeiture of property,school and county taxes. So the taxing entities get little or more likely nothing in the way of tax revenue for several years and still have to provide services, guess who makes up the shortfall?
In the APA application the developers clearly state that the project is not viable without the PILOT but that was 8 yrs ago, maybe they can get the EB-5 money and that would make many locals much better off in the long run if they do get this going then it fails. But the EB-5 $$$$ is a big IF at best.

endoftheline wrote

In the last newspaper article this Lawson guy said they were going to put aside 7.25% of the Great Camp sales towards improvements at Big Tupper.

I also remember reading that something like 7% of sales would be put into an escrow account to fund ski area improvements.  I thought it was in the Tupper Lake Free Enterprise or the village board meeting minutes, but I can't find it for the life of me.  Endo, could you post a link to where this ^^ is referenced?

Adk Jeff wrote

endoftheline wrote

In the last newspaper article this Lawson guy said they were going to put aside 7.25% of the Great Camp sales towards improvements at Big Tupper.

I also remember reading that something like 7% of sales would be put into an escrow account to fund ski area improvements.  I thought it was in the Tupper Lake Free Enterprise or the village board meeting minutes, but I can't find it for the life of me.  Endo, could you post a link to where this ^^ is referenced?

Jeff,  don't have time right now to post a link but as I recall the set up was for 7.25% of the Great Camps sales to go into an account set up for Big  Tupper. It would however, be controlled by the developer, a local representative from the Town with the developer and another appointee of the developer would control the way the funds were spent and direct where they would go. I'll see if I can give you a source when I get a chance.  The local Free Press reported last week that the ACR was going to be selling Great  Camp lots this winter for Millions and using part of those proceeds to go to refurbishing the ski area.  Of course that might be a tad optimistic since they don't even own the land yet. More Spin.

Yeah, that's what I remember reading too. PM me or post the link here if you can find the source. I spent about an hour the other day looking and couldn't find it...

I recall something about a certain minimum number of homes had to be sold first, then funds would be set aside for the mtn. Reasonable.

Adk Jeff wrote

Yeah, that's what I remember reading too. PM me or post the link here if you can find the source. I spent about an hour the other day looking and couldn't find it...

Jeff, Just found a reference in the Tupper Lake Free Press, 10/24/12, page 4, letter from Foxman. I'm not very computer savy so I really don't know how to post a link to it. Just google  Tupper Lake Free Press archives or back issues and you can find it.  All the issues are listed by date, starting with the most recent and go back several yrs.

I know there are other articles giving more specifics, I'll see what else I can find.

Snowballs wrote

I recall something about a certain minimum number of homes had to be sold first, then funds would be set aside for the mtn. Reasonable.

Reasonable? Not if you expect to sell slope side units. Raise your hand if you are willing to buy slope side at an Eastern ski area with zero snowmaking and only a 600 foot vertical double chair out of the base area. There is no expectation that they will sell any slope side units.

The Canadian dollar is now $.84US.

Slope side is only one potential selling point X. For many years people have been buying expensive homes in the ADKs that don't have slope access.